stray-gator_2, 1433915500

Thanks, Mick. There are very few certainties in this life, so probabilities are often all we can proffer.

One of the few things that I AM really certain about, though, is that you're amasing. Really.

When are we gonna play trains again?

udo, 1433915525

Hearsay ...how very Christian of you to take on board to Foul gossip and slander.

You said you know of surfing peds.......Brethren Blob you have lied .

tim foilat, 1433915911

Man up??? Are you serious lol. OK let's get our man-ness out then ey. You are mistaken, wrong, incorrect in your assertion that subjective truths cannot contradict. To say as much is to refuse to accept the fundamental definition of subjective and as we only have the English language to communicate our ideas to each other it is important to maintain at least the basic rules of the language.

I have made no attempt to change your view of christianity but have challenged you on certain points of your understanding of scientific and philosophical notions, in each case your point of view has been clearly illustrated as flawed, incorrect, wrong, mistaken. If you can't modify your argument to make some sense or reflect the definitions of the words you are trying to use then what is the point of claiming no one has dispatched your argument? How can you dispatch a nonsense if the person who is issuing it refuses to acknowledge the nonsense of their statements?

To this end I will try again with your opinion of nature, symbiosis illustrates that nature is not a tooth and claw fight to kill or be killed. The fact that symbiosis occurs dispatches your opinion and argument. The fact that cooperation ocurs dispatches your opinion and your argument. The fact that resource sharing occurs dispatches your opinion and your argument. Your response to this, your rebuttal, your argument to refute this is,"
A lady got dragged from her car and killed by a lion yesterday....perhaps she was paying no attention cause she was reading a book on symbiosis" ???? This is a reasonable argument to you?

Your understanding of nature as illustrated in your tooth and nail comment is wrong, irrational, incorrect and your argument has been thoroughly dispatched.

zenagain, 1433916359

On a lighhter note, it appears that Blob has wrested the Swellnet 500 trophy from Uppity.

You'd have to say it's almost akin to winning the Eddie.

SG2, great post previously.

tim foilat, 1433920372

I have to accuse you again of twisting the arguments I express, unless you can explain where in my post its suggested that I, "wouldn't allow parents the choice but [sic] would keep parental discretion", you see there is no suggestion of this in my comment but it is the first thing you choose to bring up. Its an interesting tactic.

Maybe atheists would scare kids about religion, would i be good at that? Well as a teacher and a parent I can tell you that my personal ethics are quite different to what you seem to assume. Assumptions..... Weak attempts at personal insults.....I had a read back through this thread a few days ago, its interesting the picture people choose to paint of themselves on an anonymous forum.

No parents should not be allowed to indoctrinate their children into a cult in the home.

Blob, 1433920646

So you wouldn't allow parents the choice but you would keep parental discretion (choice)
Don't accuse me of twisting your contradictions
Maybe atheists would scare kids about religion.....you'd be good at that
Should parents be allowed to subject their young children to cult indoctrination in the home?

Blob, 1433920735

"..my argument is that it s not a choice that should be left to parents. ."

Blob, 1433921253

So you call religion a cult but your ethics would disallow you from scaring children over what...cults?

tim foilat, 1433921299

And how pray tell does this suggest that parental discretion should be maintained???

Here is your comment "So you wouldn't allow parents the choice but you would keep parental discretion (choice)
Don't accuse me of twisting your contradictions
Maybe atheists would scare kids about religion.....you'd be good at that
Should parents be allowed to subject their young children to cult indoctrination in the home?"

tim foilat, 1433921547

Assumptions....deflections....

freeride76, 1433921696

"I have a subjective experience that I know is real, it could be false, but the evidence I have is of a nature that, for me, trumps contrary opinions."

That's really all I was ever trying to say. It's true for you and your evidence is entirely subjective. It could be false. But it's true for you.
That is the very nature of religious belief.

It's a somewhat curious historical footnote that God had no problem making himself objectively visible and providing evidence for belief back in the day: burning bush, parting the Red Sea, ten commandments on stone tablets, loaves and fishes, healing the sick, walking on water etc etc etc ...........

But for the past 2 thousand years he seems incapable of making his presence felt in a way that go beyond the merely subjective I saw him and you didn't but he's still real way.

udo, 1433922020

Tim,i was refering to FreeRide 'the outsider' getting inside and touching a nerve.....Blob fired up almost.

tim foilat, 1433922769

Ahh, that makes sense, my misunderstanding. Jeez if this isn't blob fired up I'd hate to think how long the discussion would be if he was!!!

Sheepdog, 1433923073

Lost lizard. You write " it is not up to us to prove that God does not exist. It is up to theists to prove that he does."
That's a cop out..... And that is why my scaly friend, i am agnostic..... Hardcore atheists (I'm not calling you one btw) piss me off just as much as hardcore theists..... The real answer is "I don't know"...... No one can prove what happened before the big bang.... No one..... The sun might be an atom.... And we might be living on an electron.... And the milky way may be a molecule.... And all the galaxies may be molecules that make up a haemorrhoid on a giant in another void....
So you can keep on not believing without proof, and Blerb can keep on believing without proof.... It's all good.....
But a bloke that was alot wiser than lizard, dawg or blerb once said this;


"The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic"
Charles Darwin........

Blob, 1433923217

Your words
"Yes parents can choose to subject their children to mandatory religious teaching or not (yes it is mandatory in religious private schools), my argument is that it s not a choice that should be left to parents."
"I said nothing about the state replacing parental discretion, "
How am I to understand these sentences? If you remove the right of parents to decide to let their children have religious instruction who is it that decides if not the state.?

Blob, 1433923502

Assumptions....deflections...how?

Do you got an answer to the question?

Blob, 1433923589

Make it plain tim
You want to remove the right of parents to teach religion to their children in the schools and in the home.
Is that correct?

Sheepdog, 1433923860

Religion should not be funded by the taxpayer in any public school... If people wish to have their children taught religion in school, there are many private schools to choose from..... But government funding to these private schools must not be spent on religious classes, whether it be a christian school, a muslim school etc.....

tim foilat, 1433924035

You can understand them as they are written, there is no cryptic meaning there. There no mention of removing and maintain parental discretion which you suggest, there is no contradiction.

As I mentioned, more than once, the decision on wether or not to undertake religious instruction should be left up to the individual at a time when they are appropriately informed to make such a decision.

This seems straight forward and reasonable to me, as I mentioned children need to be allowed to develop socially and mentally before being subjected to the question of religion.

tim foilat, 1433924820

'So you call religion a cult but your ethics would disallow you from scaring children over what...cults?', this is tangential to the core of the discussion, ie a deflection from the points in contention. The point in contention was your suggestion that I had said the parents should have and should not have discretion, a contradiction, this wasn't the case. So yes a deflection from the discussion at hand.

"your ethics would disallow you from scaring children over what...cults?" This is an assumption, doesn't need further discussion.

I'm happy to answer your questions

Blob, 1433925275

You are cherry picking
You may think you exist....but you could be wrong. Someone else might maintain that you don't. Therefore you cannot be sure.
You might think you are an atheist...but you might be a Quaker.
Whose to say....all just opinion
No, a fact is a fact despite opinions
You have an opinion that my fact is an opinion, but I have evidence you are not privy to.
Tell ya what...one of us is right
We could all be wrong about things we think we know are true yet we still assume that they are true.
You don't have to believe me but I know God lives just like you know you are not a Quaker.

What makes you think everything was so obvious "back in the day"? We have a version of a version when it comes to history.
My dad is more atheist than agnostic but he believes in certain "supernatural" stuff from his personal experiences.
Move to Haiti or Africa and see if your assumptions are challenged.
The scriptures say miracles follow faith. No faith , no miracles.
I've seen a few

udo, 1433925694

You have seen miracles....do tell us about them.

Blob, 1433926279

You keep talking yourself up...I always see that as a sign of insecurity.
Like claiming you have won a point without actually saying anything

I was ridiculing your non argument....didn't you notice?
Of course there is some truth in humour
Organisms may help each other out....um....so?
How does this fact show things killing other things is not a bad thing?
You are confusing scientific theory with philosophy
There is no good or bad in there....it's all indifferent....which makes me wonder why you care so much.
Get of the dais champ

stray-gator_2, 1433926280

Well, since I've been asked for it by our friend Blob, here's my 'boiled down' argument against the existence of God.

1. The consistent pattern of replacing supernatural explanations with natural ones.

Explanations once provided by religion or ‘God’ have over the millennia been consistently and multitudinously replaced by ones based on physical cause and effect. Give me one solid, immutable, evidence-supported, peer-reviewed example the other way and I'll reconsider my disbelief.

2: The inconsistency of perceptions of ‘God’.

Why, if God (or any other metaphysical being) is real, do peoples’ perceptions differ so wildly, yet their perceptions of the natural world share such commonality?

Simple - because God does not exist. Perceptions of ‘God’ are not perceptions of anything real. They’re made up perceptions, something that the part of our brain that's wired to see pattern and intention looks for, even when none exists.

3: The weakness and circularity of religious arguments, explanations, and apologetics.

"God exists because the Bible says God exists." "God exists because I feel in my heart that God exists." "God is an entity that cannot be proven by reason or evidence” “God is so powerful and all-knowing that we humans can’t possibly hope to understand him” (despite, allegedly, being made in his image). "We Christians/Jews/Muslims don't have to show you any reason or evidence, it's unreasonable and intolerant for you to even expect that”.

4: The increasing diminution of God.

Historically, the perceived power of God has been steadily diminishing for centuries. As human understanding of the physical world has increased, and the testing of theories and claims has improved, the domain of God's miracles and other supposed supernatural phenomena has consistently shrunk. Eg. Sinning against God is no longer to blame for tsunamis – we know they result from undersea earthquakes, which in turn we know result from tectonic plates shifting. Likewise, sinning against God is no longer to blame for plagues – we now know about microbes and viruses.

‘God’ has shrunk to now being just the god of the gaps. Whatever gap there is in our understanding of the world, that's what God is (supposedly) responsible for. But those gaps are diminishing fast.

5: The fact that belief in God runs in families.

The single strongest factor in determining whether a person believes in God and what their religion is? The religion they were born into and brought up with. By far. Very few people carefully examine all the available religious beliefs and select the one they think most accurately describes the world. Overwhelmingly, people believe whatever religion they were taught as children.

Yet no-one does this with science. We believe whatever scientific understanding is best supported by the best available evidence at the time. And as the evidence changes, so does our understanding.

Few people even do it with politics. Again, our positions shift with our circumstances and our attitudes. Witness the opinion polls that show support of same-sex marriage increasing with each new generation. Political beliefs learned from youth can, and do, break down in the face of the reality that people see every day. And scientific theories do this, all the time, on a regular basis.

This is emphatically not the case with religion. From which we can postulate that religion is not a perception of a real entity. If it were, people wouldn't just believe whatever religion they were taught as children, simply because it was what they were taught as children. The fact that religion runs so firmly in families strongly suggests that it is not a perception of a real phenomenon. It is a dogma, supported and perpetuated by tradition, social pressure and, in many cases, fear and intimidation. Not by reality.

6: The physical causes of everything we think of as the soul.

For centuries, the hypothesis of the ‘soul’ was the singular province of and irrefutable proof of a divine entity. However, today, despite the sciences of neurology, neuropsychology and neuroplasticity being in their infancy, the evidence – consistently, thoroughly, across the board – is that, whatever consciousness is, it is inextricably linked to the brain. We’re talking about rigorously-gathered, carefully-tested, thoroughly cross-checked, double-blinded, placebo-controlled, replicated, peer-reviewed research.

Consciousness and identity, character and free will, are products of the brain and the body. Biological processes, governed by laws of physical cause and effect. Consciousness is a product of the brain, not God. Period.

7: The complete failure of any sort of supernatural phenomenon to stand up to rigorous testing.

In the face of careful, rigorous, double-blind, placebo-controlled, replicated peer-reviewed testing, every claim of supernatural phenomenon by a religious or spiritual believer has fallen apart. Supernatural claims only hold up under careless, casual examination. They are supported by lousy (or simply no) testing methodology, wishful thinking, confirmation bias and a dozen other forms of cognitive bias. When studied carefully, under conditions specifically designed to screen these things out, the claims vanish. Which is why the James Randi Educational Foundation’s $1,000,000 prize is still unclaimed, despite more than one thousand attempts to win it.

8: The slipperiness of religious and spiritual beliefs and arguments.

For example, many believers say that if things go their way, it's a sign of God's grace and intervention; if they don't, then God moves in mysterious ways and has a lesson to teach that can’t be understood, and it's not up to humans to question his will. In the philosophy of science, a theory that can be supported no matter what possible evidence comes to hand is useless. The theory has no power to explain what's already happened, or to predict what will happen in the future. The theory of gravity, for instance, could be disproven by things suddenly falling up; the theory of evolution could be disproven by finding rabbits in the pre-Cambrian fossil layer. These theories predict that those things won't happen; if those things do, the disproved theories will be replaced by better ones. But if the theory of God's existence holds up no matter what happens -- whether someone with cancer that you pray to God for gets better or dies, whether natural disasters strike big sinful cities or small God-fearing towns -- then it's a useless theory, with no power to predict or explain anything.

No matter what happens, religious and spiritual beliefs can be twisted to prove that the belief is right. Just read Blob’s posts on this thread; when challenged, he simply shifts the goalposts. For example, he says in one post that the Bible is the perfect truth of God handed down to prophets, yet in another says that it can be interpreted differently by different readers? If it needs interpreting, how perfect can it be?

If a case can't be made and then stuck by, or modified, or let go, then it's not a good case.

9: The failure of religion to improve or clarify over time.

Over the years and decades and centuries, our understanding of the physical world has grown and clarified by a ridiculous amount. We understand things about the Universe that we couldn't have imagined a thousand years ago, or a hundred, or even ten. Things that make your mouth gape with astonishment just to think about. Why? The scientific method, a self-correcting method for understanding the physical world.

Our understanding of the supernatural world? Not so much – it’s in the same place it's always been: hundreds and indeed thousands of sects, squabbling over which sacred texts and spiritual intuitions are the right ones. And around in the squabbling circle we go.

10: The complete lack of solid evidence for God's existence.

There's no evidence for it. No good evidence, anyway. No evidence that doesn't just amount to opinion and tradition and confirmation bias. No evidence that doesn't fall apart upon close examination. As thousands of atheists before me have pointed out: it is not up to us to prove that God does not exist. It is up to theists to prove that he does.

On the balance of probability and the weight of available information, God almost certainly does not exist. In the absence of any solid evidence or arguments in favor of the probability of God's existence and in the growing raft of arguments against it, I will continue to be an atheist and act as if he doesn't.

grog-an, 1433926717

Gay-strator wins!! blob loses.
Close thread

freeride76, 1433926785

"You have an opinion that my fact is an opinion, but I have evidence you are not privy to."

11 pages in? Well out with it then. What is this evidence that would shift your subjective experience to fact.

If you don't mind, it would help the discussion if we could evaluate it. Otherwise, it's just more of the same.

Psychiatric institutions are full of people who have visions, claim to be the son of God or whatever. They are absolutely dead certain they know that they know.

Blob, 1433926804

Just pedestrian stuff like a kid given months to live then the cancer just disappeared. Or biggies like an 8 yr old praying to find a lost pet, seeing a picture in her mind and straight after running cross country with the whole family following to the exact place where it was. Or how about dead people coming back to comfort the living. To some everything is a miracle, to others everything can be explained away.

udo, 1433927473

Where might I find the medical notes on this oh so fortunate child, the cancer was obviously diagnosed by a oncology specialist ....then to just disappear....what a miracle .

happyasS, 1433927814

Sg2...."The failure of religion to improve or clarify over time".

i dont know about that...firstly god created world in 7 days, then many hundreds of years later the catholic church said that each day was really 1000 years making it 7000 years old. pretty good clarification to me. maybe the bible should be re-written to say 7000 years....oh wait...that'd upset too many people who like it just the way it is.

yep..like i said right at the beginning of this article....very few people "find" god like rusty....99.9% of time they are simple born into believing it.

im totally agnostic on god, but the bible is the biggest load of bullshit stories ever....and its fooling millions of people into wasting time reading it. "word of god" - what a crock of shit.

stray-gator_2, 1433928247

It's not a cop out - it's how these things work. I believe in things based on the weight and quality of evidence, and the testability of the theory being postulated. There is good evidence to support the theory that the Sun is a huge, glowing sphere largely comprised of hydrogen and helium, with carbon, nitrogen and oxygen, neon, iron, silicon, magnesium and sulfur making up the rest. We have instruments that can measure these things.

Can we do this with God? Of what is God comprised? What does God look like? Where does God live? Is Heaven up or down?

Will the Sun rise tomorrow? We don't know for 100% certain but, based on what we know and can measure, we can say that, on the weight of information, the balance of probabilities is strongly in favour of the proposition for 'yes'.

Can we say this for God? Can we even say this for the proposition that a man called Jesus did something 2000 years ago that no one else in recorded history has ever done - after being tortured and killed in a most cruel, horrific and very public manner, he auto-resuscitated three days later? Is the weight of known evidence and the balance of probabilities in favour of THAT proposition really the same as it is for the proposition that the Sun will rise tomorrow?

Be intellectually honest, Sheepster. And don't forget, too, that Darwin wrote the Origin of Species in 1859. Who knows what he'd write today with the body of knowledge that's been amassed since.

stray-gator_2, 1433929510

Jeez, yer roight Mick!!


Now, back to yer dormitory. And leave Muriel alone.

uplift, 1433929562

And, I'm certain thats all true!

uplift, 1433929668

Your 'ona!

uplift, 1433930006

Well, almost, and thats good a farkin nuff oi!

uplift, 1433930168

'We have instruments that can measure these things.'

Limited instuments though. Extremely limited. Always by the user, the measurer. Just as an ants are. So an ant has a comprehension of a limited 'world', or universe. We have no instruments to measure what is the limit of , or beyond space, that our extremely limited instruments can measure. Or visa versa, the smallest particle and beyond. In that regard, we are like ants. Ignorant. Cocky, but very ignorant. We have no idea of the truth and limits of reality, despite all the posturing and gesturing.

As raised, we recognise patterns. If we decide to rely on our extremely limited physical senses, as the be all and end all, then those senses tell us that all we can comprehend, has a source. We identify the source of things. Suddenly, when our physical senses are inadequate, we make up a new rule, and say things just are. What is the source of the first pattern? Or will we just use the convenient, 'they just are story'?

'Why, if God (or any other metaphysical being) is real, do peoples’ perceptions differ so wildly, yet their perceptions of the natural world share such commonality?'

The commonality is a new, post colonial construction. For instance, the most successful Cultures ever in human history had an entirely different, incomprehensible to us, view of the 'natural world'. Our culture, who's record of success pales in comparison, used brute force and violence to smash and bash our entirely different 'natural world' view into them. A friend who is one of the top, highly esteemed archeologists in the country, once told me of the difficulty he had in trying to communicate with some Indigenous Australians who were the last to live in the fully Traditional sense, with no contact with our culture, until they had no choice. He said their view of things was so different that it made it almost impossible to comprehend what they were experiencing. But, having said that, he's not a swillnutter, so 'wot wood e farkin no aye!!!'

tim foilat, 1433930785

That's it???? Blob I gotta say, youre a pushover mate. Pedestrian is a good description. No cheese toast Jesus', no talking to the spirits on a mushroom trip but 'biggies' like finding a pet. Can i ask are these the experiences that brought you to Christianity or did these miracles only follow your faith?

Blob, 1433931212

I'm laughing with you buddy

tim foilat, 1433931618

There you go again, trying to turn a discussion into something personal, its the internet blob, you can call me any name under the sun, ridicule with your best attempts, try all the put downs you can....its the internet :)

As for the remainder of your post, yes perhaps it was an attempt at ridicule, never the less it was your response to a reasoned argument we were having based on a flawed statement you made. It was not a reasonable refutation, it was a nonsense the same as the original statement you made, you dug yourself into a hole and that was the only position left to you beyond conceding that you were in fact incorrect which seems a difficult thing for you to do, perhaps you can explain this in your personal understanding of psychology? Is it insecurity? Is that like scoring a point when you haven't actually said anything?

Get off the dais????? Worse than the attempt at insult is the difficulty understanding the language. Someone on another thread called a guy a punce yesterday, pronounced 'poonce' apparently, I wasn't sure, similarly with dais, I'm not sure what they are, i could be on them, if so i hope they are good for me :)

tim foilat, 1433931998

Yes, yes everyone is laughing WITH you blob ;)

Sheepdog, 1433932927

You can not prove to me that a god, or gods, or another dimension etc does not exist, just as Blerb can't prove God/s exist....
When you have irrefutable proof there is no god, post it... Until then, you are in the same smug waffle boat as blerb.....
So many experts...... So many convinced without the ultimate proof......

Btw, you do know the sun doesn't rise, right?

stray-gator_2, 1433935076

What!!? It does too. It comes right up from under the world and falls back down when it's too tired to keep flapping its arms.

Blob, 1433936384

Then answer
Make it plain tim
You want to remove the right of parents to teach religion to their children in the schools and in the home.
Is that correct?

happyasS, 1433936551

you dont need to have "ultimate proof" to believe. in fact there is no such thing as ultimate proof and i would test anyone to provide an example. all belief is based of judgement of the objective reasoning and personal experience presented.

whilst we can't proove or disprove god we can discuss the probability of gods existance based off the arguments made in his favour. for example religous people talk of miracles that are often explained through science. the bible is the word of god, and so we can test whats written in the bible against scientific evidence.

balance of probability is that god doesnt exist for many people....and the numbers of people believing this is growing. faith and analysis are known to be the enemy of eachother. as humans become more analytical they also become less religous.

Sheepdog, 1433936758

Flapping arms... Flapping gums.... It's all good hehehehe...... But that just shows how "science" can be wrong..... Flat earth was once science.... Now we know it's round and the sun doesn't rise but the earth spins....... Long after we're gone, lizard man, perhaps the learned ones will discover the reason for the big bang, and what existed before....

Sheepdog, 1433936982

"probability".... Now there's a malleable word......
I'm about to type the letter C............. C.........
There, it exists.... It doesn't "probably exist".......

Blob, 1433937075

I doubt your interest is genuine ....just a feeling

Blob, 1433937134

Read the comments...all there

Blob, 1433937483

So you are a school teacher right?
Seriously
I pity those kids

Blob, 1433937579

Aww shucks
I'm really flattered you are paying such close attention

Blob, 1433937769

Go back to playground duty

stray-gator_2, 1433937800

No, my hairy friend, flat earth was never 'science'. It was a just a theory that fell away as the scientifically-gathered evidence against it improved.

stray-gator_2, 1433938053

Phew!! For a horrible moment there I thought you mightn't resort to playing the man. But, bang on time, there it is.

I do love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

stray-gator_2, 1433938193

There's that smell again. Like a fragrant rose. Or a flattened cane toad.

Blob, 1433938285

Do you know your way around a courtroom udo? A victim told me a story. If I tell the story it is hearsay.

wellymon, 1433938310

Fuck me no one has commented...?

I must be the first;)

Blob, 1433938451

Boiled down from where?

silicun, 1433938563

Well played blob

silicun, 1433939028

.

silicun, 1433939124

.

silicun, 1433939255

.

tim foilat, 1433939617

Was, a teacher, not currently although pity the kids if you feel the need. While your being pitiful spare some for the hideous damage being done to children in the name of Christianity.

tim foilat, 1433939670

Yes...ahhhh...well played?

tim foilat, 1433939902

Of course I'm paying attention, we were engaged in a two way discussion for the most part. Its just now that you seem to be fraying at the edges and resorting to one line personals. You've shown theres more to you, bring back the old blob, the interesting blob, the reasonable if irrational blob....the christian blob!

tim foilat, 1433941133

@blob, in an effort to bring our discourse up to date and offer you a reply to your question, owed only due to your polite and generous nature, I'll answer your question here.

Let me first establish that my initial point was that religion shouldn't (IMO) be taught in schools until children are informed enough to decide if its something they would like to undertake OR in the context of studying religion in the general sense.

You've developed this statement into the question, "Then answer
Make it plain tim
You want to remove the right of parents to teach religion to their children in the schools and in the home.
Is that correct?"

I guess that's one way of putting it although I would balk at the notion that parents or the church or the state have a 'right' to teach religion to children, I don't understand this to be a right.

Therefore a more appropriate way to describe my point of view would be to say that I think that children should be sufficiently informed and mature enough to able to make their own personal choice about taking on a religion, I object to the idea of indoctrination into a religion when children's minds are vulnerable.

uplift, 1433949466

'Mr lift, before making our final, definitive decision, we just have one question. Can you fulfill the duties as described in the position description?'

'Yes, I am certain that I can! Well... almost!'

'Brilliant Mr lift! Then we have great pleasure in telling you that you are successful, and the position is yours! Well... almost!'

'Aye?!!! WTF?!! What's that supposed to mean?'

'It means exactly what it means, that the position is yours... almost!'

'That's fuckin' brilliant that is, have I got the fuckin thing or not?

'For certain Mr lift! Almost!'

'For fuck's sake, what does that mean?'

'We are on a slippery slope here Mr lift. What it means is that as our perceptions differ so wildly, and we are unable to reach commonality re the certain, yet almost position, there can be only one certain conclusion... almost... scientifically speaking.'

'And what's that then.'

'Its simply, scientifically brilliant! You don't exist'

'What... are you certain? '

'Well, almost!'

How can we sleep at night? There'd better be a God, or we're fucking, brilliantly doomed.

Blob, 1433972393

Did I ever say I could prove the existence of God?
Nope
I said I could not
I did say anyone can find out for themselves if they wanted to....but that's not you unfortunately
You won't ask, but you will get your ultimate proof

Blob, 1433973129

Too many words not enough answer
Yes or no would be clearer
How does a child become "informed enough" to make a decision about being taught religion having never been taught anything about religion?
How would you stop parents teaching their children about religion in their own homes?
Do you realise that most people might consider you a dangerous extremist?

udo, 1433973559

Dangerous extremist ? F. F. S.

stray-gator_2, 1433975014

You awoke at 12:43 to write this? Prostate playing up again, ole boy?

Sheepdog, 1433976593

Ohhh stop it, my cold blooded prehistorically linked brethren.... It was the science of the day, and you know it.... "It was just a theory"........ Isn't that how science works? with theories like Einstein’s Static Universe, Phrenology, cold fusion?? There is science out there right now that "we believe" to be "probably true", but it will be disproved at a future date...
Don't go down blerbs track of blind faith in something that cannot and will not be proven in our lifetime.....
You say it isn't up to atheist to prove god doesn't exist..... That's fine when an atheist keeps their trap shut..... But when an atheist publicly says "god does not exist", and/or they form a sort of religion with websites and facebook pages promoting their belief, it is within my right to say "hey show me the proof", just as I ask the theists to do the same.....
Neither of you believers have shown me anything....

Sheepdog, 1433977955

Blob.... Get over yourself mate..... Stop reveling in your own persecution here on swellnet.... I know it releases feel good endorphins which many self whipping religious types enjoy.... But these same endorphins can be released by going for a surf..... FFS.....

uplift, 1433982675

I knew I'd be the first thing in your almost life. How can we be expected to sleep, with certain ludicrous dolts, stray idiots, walking the planet, their almost life spent speiling paragraph after paragraph after paragraph after paragraph after paragraph after paragraph after paragraph (did I say paragraph) of certain... well almost 'brilliant', 'scholastic', 'scientific reasoning'. Thank God for exams, grades, and Honour Rolls!!!! (Please excuse me whilst I roll around the floor literally dying of laughter)

Again, there'd better be a God, because the almost certain, stray, probable, 'scientific' alternative is almost too much to comprehend, and spells certain doom for the planet.

stray-gator_2, 1433983085

Literally dying???

Finally something you say excites me.

Blob, 1433984887

You'd know all about it I guess

Blob, 1433985133

Oh, there are good and bad teachers...you know, like good and bad religion.
A tiny nuance hiding behind your oversized blind spot

Blob, 1433985341

Is it possible you can be that self unaware?

Blob, 1433985453

I love my fans!....and yes, I am releasing a greatest hits album

tim foilat, 1433987681

Are you actually god?

tim foilat, 1433987852

Yes blob/god, I've noticed how popular your point of view is.

brutus, 1433989996

just as there is hideous damage being done by non-Christians....and now we have secular govts and societies......which means that you have faith in the good of mankind.......but...I don't because I have seen the misery which Godless societies end up being....communism!

just for the record ..I believe religious organization's do not represent God...in fact there is a case to be made ..that a lot of the churches are pedophile organizations...

brutus, 1433990790

scientific proof...hmm...so one man sees blue another sees green...another sees brown....so who is right the majority ?

Is the majority scientifically right......how does man interpret science??

Tim interesting to read your points of view but I have probably missed.... what do you believe in if anything?

silicun, 1433990839

Have to agree with your last paragraph there Brutus, certainly there seems to be a lot of evidence that the christian church is a pedophile organisation and the Muslim church and the Jews well they're just sickos

brutus, 1433991161

Not the Christian Church...but religious entities that are the middleman for God !

and worse still are the godless societies like the communist Russias/chinas/Nth Koreas.....etc........

tim foilat, 1433991944

Rather than ask the question, how does man interpret science, perhaps a better way to understand science is that sccince is a human tool for interpreting our reality.

Brutus, on the question of god I am agnostic. On the question of christianity I am a firm non believer, I've spent too much time immersed in various cultures around the world for chrritstianity to make any sense to me after growing up as a practicing christian.

Ideologically I like to think of my mind as open and receptive, ethically I believe in understanding the ecological and human community we live in and practicing care and tolerance based on understanding.

silicun, 1433992197

Chritianity IS a religious entity that acts as a middleman for god, this is how the church of Christianity began and how it persists today.

Are godless societies worse? Can you give me an authoritative argument to support this?

silicun, 1433993052

Brutus, being a born again Christian do you support this as good christian thinking on the existence of god -

"I did say anyone can find out for themselves if they wanted to....but that's not you unfortunately
You won't ask, but you will get your ultimate proof"

Is this how you talk to people about Christianity and coming to god?

benski, 1433994570

Just a side note sheepdog. It's nonsense to compare the flat earth idea as science with what we call science in today's terms. Aristotle, arguably one of the key figures in the evolution of the scientific method, noted the earth was spherical in shape and he lived hundreds of years before christ. It was literally thousands of years ago that anyone thought the earth was flat, and it sure wasn't determined through anything resembling the scientific method. Science, as we refer to it today didn't even exist at the time.

To equate the beliefs of philosophers from over 2000 years ago, a time well before empiricism was conceived, with the science of today, is nonsense. The idea of the earth being flat was never scientific and it's silly to suggest it is.

As for your complaint about probability, that should be right up your agnostic alley. The use of probability in science today is due to a recognition that we can't be 100% certain about many things currently under investigation, so we estimate the probability of a given hypothesis being true. It's very consistent with agnosticism.

My view of it is that a lot of the low hanging fruit of science has been figured out and now we're dealing with things that are multi-dimensional and intricate, which can be impossible to make unequivocal statements (given current powers of observation and data collection). Using probability enables scientists to make statements about where the current available knowledge points, so that we as a society can make decisions based on that. The alternative is to shrug our shoulders, say we don't know because we can't say with 100% certainty, and walk away. Not very useful.

Blob, 1434006496

Flattery will get you nowhere

Blob, 1434006826

Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated
It ain't never over till the fat lady sings
.....As in our final destination
Don't worry, I'll help you get the egg off your face when the day comes

udo, 1434007878

Blob , I don't know whats happened but Im feelin ya.....im a convert and I feel blessed........shit major drama just happened and may need some help


Back shortly.

wellymon, 1434008343

Just ask God..

happyasS, 1434014769

whats wrong with probability SD? science is supposed to malleable - unlike religion which does not like to adapt.

udo, 1434015852

Blob, sorry to take so long, bit of drama went down

need your help ...

a favour...........


Can I have another Altar Boy the last one just Split.

Sheepdog, 1434018453

Happyas... I don't have a problem with probability... Dunno if you get into the forecast notes, but "probability" is a tool I use quite often.... And with east coast swells, i do ok.... I'd say 4 out of 5 times I get it right.... But 20% of the time, i get it wrong....
So if someone says to me "I don't believe there is a god.... I can't prove it but from what I have studied a god probably doesn't exist, so I'm backing that"..... I think that is fair enough... But if an atheist says "There is definitely no god" (and I'm not implying you or anyone here has said that), i say "prove it"..... They can't....
I say the same thing to anyone who says "there definitely is a god"..... Prove it...

Now, Benski.... I wasn't comparing scientific theories from way back when to now.. I was pointing out that theories once considered fact can and have been proven untrue... I wasn't comparing science from the earliest discoverers of plumbing to the hadron collider... That would be like comparing todays science to science in 1000 year time (if we are still here)... The making of the first bow and arrow was science.... But hey, should I compare it to a drone? No.... So I think it is "nonsense" that you have gone down that route of attack.... I also never said to "shrug our shoulders" in regards to the question of is there a god.... I just don't know.... But I keep my eyes open...

Blob, 1434020008

Thanks for the gentle advice brother. I know it comes out of a deep and genuine concern

benski, 1434022142

Don't worry I'm not attacking you sheepdog, more nitpicking. And now you're making me do more of it! You said " It was the science of the day, and you know it"

It wasn't the science of the day. It wasn't science.

It's a nonsense thing to say because the earth is flat wasn't a scientific idea. It might have been an idea of how the earth was shaped, but that doesn't make it scientific. Just clarifying that point because it's a silly example that gets thrown around freely as an example of science. But science it ain't, and never was.

Science isn't the study of the natural world, it's a method of enquiry that happens to be used to study the natural world. No scientific enquiry was used to determine the earth was flat. If you're main point is that science updates itself, sure ok but you might as well say religious people believe in god. It's kind of the point of science, to update itself as new information comes to hand. That's it's major strength.

As for the shrug your shoulders comment, I wasn't referring to god or a belief in it, but rather the alternative policy actions to science based on probabilities. I thought you were having a go at science based on probabilities so I was just pointing out that we can estimate the probability of a certain outcome and make policy decisions based on that, or we can shrug our shoulders and do nothing because we can't be 100% sure. Nothing to do with god in that comment from me.

Sheepdog, 1434023296

Benski, your definition of science is the definition of science today.... Not the definition of science then.... To them it was science.... Science continually evolves.... To Archelaus, he came up with a theory that the flat earth had a slight dome shape, which explained the changing astronomy depending on where one was standing.... Many learned men agreed with him, because it was "probable"....
But hey, we'll agree to disagree.....
As far as your last paragraph goes, this whole thread has been about god.... The probability of god, or no god.... BTW, do you believe in god?

Blob, 1434023839

They've been known to shoot you for trying to leave......Berlin Wall. Cambodia (Kampuchea) Maoism, they'd shoot you for wearing glasses....2 million authoritative dead there. North Korea....everyone's favourite.
Would there even be free western democracies without Christianity?

silicun, 1434024297

There's more to you than meets the eye sheepio, I've always liked your weather posts but the breadth of your knowledge impresses me as I've said about many of the contributors on S/N

While were on science and the universe and reality and all that, try wrapping your head around this- http://www.digitaljournal.com/science/experiment-shows-future-events-decide-what-happens-in-the-past/article/434829#ixzz3cgcnsqoX

silicun, 1434025332

Sorry the question isnt directed to you and im not interested in anything you have to say. After taking the time to catch up and read through this entire thread today ive got no respect for your opinion and i cant take anything you talk about seriously. I've read much of brutus writings on S/N and engaged with him on a few occasion to do with topical issues that I'm interested in and I always appreciate his opinion. Thanks anyway but i'll wait around for him to get back on here.

benski, 1434026302

Well mate you confuse me because now you seem to be arguing against what I thought was your earlier position on probability.

As for flat earth and science, I can accept what you say (though you're talking about natural philosophy rather than science) but the methods of enquiry are so different, as you acknowledged, that it's a pointless thing to raise in comparison with what we call science today. Still seems to me like you did that, but I do find your posts confusing.

As for god, I don't discuss my beliefs with many people and I'm not going to start on a loopy thread like this, beyond saying what I said above, I'm not an athiest. I'll discuss science til the cows come home because it's what I do for a crust. it's about all I've mentioned in the couple of times I've contributed to this thread. But god and the like, I'll keep that to myself.

Sheepdog, 1434027231

Silicun.. I don't know whether that was a compliment or a backhander. :p cheers, bro... You're keeping me on my toes....
Benski, My posts shouldn't confuse a man with your intellect, surely... Firstly my original post to gator was a tongue in cheek jibe re' his "the sun rises" comment... Go back and re read.... Hopefully you'll get the joke....
And as I said about science (even though I'm not as skilled as you and cannot use this thread to demonstrate an expertise gained by the may years of study like yourself), I'm sure you can comprehend that the definition of science has changed through the ages.... What was considered science 2000 years ago is now not considered science.... And even though in all our current wisdom we may think we have reached a pinnacle, and only a small amount is to be yet discovered on the "higher branches", I'd say there is a good "probability" that in 2000 years time, someone may read these ancient texts buried in swellnet and come to the conclusion that we were stupid, pretending to know all whilst shitting in our own nests...
Cheers, Benski....

benski, 1434028931

Oh gees. I don't come to these pages looking for a fight mate. I do so looking for a conversation. I'll leave you to it.

uplift, 1434032474

'in regards to the question of is there a god.... I just don't know.... But I keep my eyes open...'

Why? Eyes are very limited physical organs. What is it that can decide to keep them open or closed. You, or the most esteem scientist on the planet can't pinpoint that. There is no common consensus on that. Yet the results, the indicators of you, the thing that can decide to think, or not, but isn't the thought, are easily observed. You arent though. Therefore, applying a common deduction, you don't exsist.

Blob, 1434053657

1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. (New Testament, Luke, Chapter 17)

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. (New Testament, Matthew, Chapter 12)

Blob, 1434057397

Then don't tack yourself into an exchange between Mr Tim and I that Brutus added to.
Call half the world pedophiles and sickos and I will call you on it.
That is your version of respect I suppose.
Still I can see why you would like to avoid backing up your mouth.

Blob, 1434058270

While arguing on absolute truth Vs. relative truth, I remember asking a woman the loaded question "do you exist"
....her answer was "I don't know"
A defensible position if you are clever enough to make it....what is consciousness after all?
But really, if you don't know whether you exist or not why bother even arguing about truth?
IMO if one thing is absolutely true then all truth must be absolute, and world views are built on such basic stuff

Sheepdog, 1434060868

Ahh, Uplift.....Blob......... "Do you exist?"...... "Am I real"?..... Ted can answer that for you.......

brutus, 1434064824

Silicun .....Christianity is set out in the Bible ,New and Old testament.....religions take the Bible and interpret it and become the middleman....

hence its stunning to see Ireland, being torn apart by catholic and protestants who believe in the same God and Jesus.......but have different rituals ...and the fight is over the rituals......its mans intervention and arrogance that is a blight on Christianity......

there is no church of Christianity.......there are different religious entities that claim to be God/s middleman......just claims !

Godless societies......societies that have been created in the image of a man/Dictator ...such as in Communism.......Russia,China,Nth Korea ,Cambodia.........the list goes on....genocide ...societies that did not even see out a century......

One could even use the Nazi's....even though they professed to be Christian .....actions showed otherwise...Hitlers's vision of a 1000 year Reich......or a decade?

Even primitive societys had their gods/spirits......

brutus, 1434066005

Tim..even if you use the analogy that science is a tool of man....man makes so many mistakes ...he misuses the tools and.....the end result is not the science but mans misuse of the tools or mans interpretation varies from man to man...that's why I used the color example...we rely on our senses to interpret.

I can understand why after being brought up in the church and a supposed practicing Christian....that you are now an agnostic........I too was brought up as practicing Christian,altar boy,choir,sunday school teacher....but did not believe the Church ...41 years later I had very radical personal issues.....even one might say a bit of a miracle......and I questioned myself ...what does it all mean??

Do you think that man has inherent goodness...or is learnt or has evolved....or it just magically appeared with the big bang??

brutus, 1434066393

ahh udo..you are better than making jokes ,about an issue that is horrific .......you might think its funny..maybe if you told some Abbo jokes ...you could complete your Vilification of religion and Race?

wellymon, 1434077440

Hahahaha
If you don't look you won't see;)

Sheepdog, 1434077988

"Therefore, applying a common deduction, you don't exsist."

Then why are you writing to me? I don't exist....

Sheepdog, 1434079767

"Oh gees. I don't come to these pages looking for a fight mate. I do so looking for a conversation. I'll leave you to it."
Awww come on benski.. Don't go lol.... But don't go all passive aggressive on us either...... Re' coming to these pages and fights/debate etc - that's fair enough when you join a thread about board design, or travel tips.... But when you join a thread that's already a fairly heated debate about god and science with your own contrary position , there's a good "probability" that a disagreement may ensue, wouldn't you say?
And when you enter that debate, and your very first post directed at me has the following remarks; " It's NONSENSE to compare "...... and "is NONSENSE"...... and " it's SILLY to suggest"..... and "that should be RIGHT UP YOUR AGNOSTIC ALLEY", then I'd say the probability of a debate has risen yet again..... You could've taken the japanese diplomacy tactic of "yes, but"...... "Yes Sheepdog, i know what you are trying to say, BUT, I'd have to disagree with you on flat earth.... IMO, that was more of a philosophy than true science.... Static universe, yeah... But Flat earth, no..... Cheers, sheepy..... The bensker...."

Now that's a conversation, mate....
It's all good, bender.... What's said on the field stays on the field....... Avagoodweekend mate....

uplift, 1434082440

No time to watch it now dawg, but will later.

Next someone will tell me that humans, with science, can create life, or that its inevitable with 'scientific' 'progress' that they will be able to someday!

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.c3 d5

uplift, 1434082885

Because its obviously wrong, that 'reason'.

wellymon, 1434083484

Hey there Uppity;)

Is that the scientific formula for cholesterol in eggs.....?????

udo, 1434091832

Brutus ,can I ask how long you have been a Christian and how you came to be one ?
Blob what does Karma mean to you ?

uplift, 1434098455

Great question welly, no its not, but its deluxe none the less. A stumper so to speak.

Now that you've mentioned eggs, and 'cholesterlol', Its obviously certain, that I have the unfair advantage. For that I apologise.

'Cholesterol is a sterol, more accurately a modified steroid, a lipid molecule.

This lipid molecule has several crucial roles all around the body, and cholesterol is so important that if you’re not getting enough from your diet, your liver will synthesize it to keep you alive.

It’s present in all of your cells, being especially dense in the membrane where it gives your cells the ability to send messages between each other so that you’re actually a human being, instead of just a dead pile of cells that can’t communicate.

Cholesterol can also be found in high amounts inside the brain and it’s vital for its complex processes.

And here’s exactly why cholesterol is vital for your testosterone production:'

No doubt you are all probably wondering right now, is cholesterol God? Or, is lifty God? Do they exisist? Its not fair?

New super thread perhaps? Now that I've literally... threaded the thread.

I like it... thread the thread... thread the thread...

Just think lifty, cholesterol, God, and substitute, 'thread the thread' for the following chorus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYoogY-UGio

wellymon, 1434103365

"Just think lifty, cholesterol, God, and substitute, 'thread the thread' for the following chorus."
But you missed out on something like my apologies, thats so silly big fellla............!


Absolutely love it champ;)

I've been eating shit loads since your last post in BB's Muscles thread,.

Cheers

Off topic Uppity but what do you think of "Sean T's" workouts been doing the "T25" lately no big muscles like you;) but losing weight and got enenrgy hahhahahahhahh I'm psyched on it, high energy stuff.
Lets go back to that Muscle thread by BB and talk about eh...!

Cheers champ

Blob, 1434110355

Stop waffling on about my hypocritical mythical unchristian smugness and please dispatch the argument you say was already dealt with but are now attempting to deflect
I really get a delicious kick out of atheists calling Christians unchristian. Double irony
Show me the standard you try to live by and tell me how well you measure up.
And for a little balance list the insults thrown my way along the way so we can compare and contrast my sins with the stuff thrown at me.
See when you sneer that I'm a "so called good hearted Christian" you are making yourself out to be on the moral high ground.....the place you want to put me so you can take pot shots
Problem is I'm not perfect yet...and neither are you champ

Blob, 1434112379

I shouldn't talk to grubs....but I like this story
I must have been thinking about mangy dogs after being stalked by about 6 of them alone at midnight in a very dark Seminyak lane - luckily I was rescued by 2 prostitutes on a motorbike ( ha another miracle).... Anyway, next day I asked my driver Ping Pong "so you're a Hindu Buddhist Animist right? and you believe in reincarnation right? So how does that make you think about or treat, say a dog, since you might become one, or the dog might become a person?
Ping Pong turned and looked at me like I was a dummy and says..." Depends if it's a good dog or a bad dog"
....beautiful...

As a man sows so shall he reap. What you put out you get back.etc

Rabbits68, 1434113695

I'll start by declaring that I haven't read the previous 13 pages in any great detail but that said any discussion relating to religion/Gods etc is always a very diverse & robust one based on my previous experience.

What I'm wondering/seeking an answer to, is which one of your Gods is responsible for breaking the Americas Cup trophy that has sat so proudly in a certain sailing club in Perth for so many years, yet as soon as Bondy croaked it, the trophy has too!! If it was Bondy's spirit, who's God does his spirit belong to now & what's with the broken trophy ??

Cheers for any input :-)

uplift, 1434121031

Yeh, seen blacks do that to a few of em aye dawg! List... en up! Watch out actually gettin' in but! Believe it or not, even seen chis crack the odd one too. Blacks aint chis though! Its real!

'Hehehe..... I've surfed bigger stuff than you could handle on a shortboard.... Stick to riding the 8 foot boards in surf that only requires a 6'6, mate.....
Btw.... I love lists ;)'

'Uplift.... I could spin bullshit... say I surfed Chi's, got barrelled, blah blah... Or I can be honest....... As a young qlder, first time travelling, first time, surfing different types of waves, Jumping off the rocks below the cliffs and paddling out at chi's was a totally foreign experience.... That little butterfly feeling one gets when confronted with something new.... Being alone and stared at by hairy blokes in their 30s didn't help the adolescent dog...... But I did it...... Got a few waves... Nothing to rave about.... Nearly got cleaned up getting in....'.

Yeh well anyway! Which version is it this week?

The guy's fit welly. Hard working. I've had an interesting week mucking around with a super fit guy in the gym, a circus performer, acrobat, strong man. Fucking machine. Huge guy. Watched his act tonite, blew everyone away. Loves hitting the gym. building muscle. Interesting background. I'll get back to you on that thread on the weekend welly.

'Next someone will tell me that humans, with science, can create life, or that its inevitable with 'scientific' 'progress' that they will be able to someday!'

i dare yas!

brutus, 1434146593

Hey Udo.......just wondering if you were going to answer or explain you pretty average comment???

Blob, sorry to take so long, bit of drama went down

need your help ...

a favour...........

Can I have another Altar Boy the last one just Split.


[quote=brutus]ahh udo..you are better than making jokes ,about an issue that is horrific .......you might think its funny..maybe if you told some Abbo jokes ...you could complete your Vilification of religion and Race?[/quote]

brutus, 1434146658

Hey Udo.......just wondering if you were going to answer or explain you pretty average comment???

Blob, sorry to take so long, bit of drama went down

need your help ...

a favour...........

Can I have another Altar Boy the last one just Split.


brutus wrote:ahh udo..you are better than making jokes ,about an issue that is horrific .......you might think its funny..maybe if you told some Abbo jokes ...you could complete your Vilification of religion and Race?

Sheepdog, 1434148472

"Yeh well anyway! Which version is it this week?"...
Hmmm, you really need to get out more.... Gee.. Even though in your words you "don't take me seriously", I'm impressed and flattered you have all of my stuff on file..... Sure beats trolling through pages to find it, aye ;)
Mate that was the young grommet version at chi's .... You know, as stated .... first ever trip away from surfing sand bottomed qld points... Solo trip....In fact first ever time in a steamer....Nothing to be ashamed of there, lift..... Honesty......Truth...... Surfing reefs got easier as experience grew ( you should fuckn know that - so this powder puff punch angle of yours has no effect on me)....
I even learnt how to turn a surfboard, mate..... You should try it one day.... Ohh.... hang on..... You did once.... That amaaaaasing "surf boat riverdance cutback".... You see the pro's doing it now..... An amaaaaasing deluxe compass points north horizontal swivel windscreen wiper 30m away from the pocket devil turn on a 4 foot fat shoulder surfing a 9 foot shredder...

[img]http://i.imgur.com/pSrvPzo.jpg[/img]

There's things called power.... and style...... try it one day...... Maybe you can't.... Perhaps it's god given... ;p

[img]http://i.imgur.com/GWr4ji4.jpg[/img]

Blob, 1434150042

Bondy.....can't help himself
A 70yr old I know came home from the hospital, where his wife had just died, to find a vase that was a special gift to him from her had fallen over and smashed. She later visited him and he asked her how she was able to...."it's possible, but difficult" she told him.
Do NDEs even need a God?

udo, 1434150799

Explain what- pretty average comment on pure fact - Re the acts commited by religious bodies on children Acts which you described as Horrific
can you explain to us how this has been able to go on for so long
With some of the church elders being aware of these disgusting crimes and covering up for Peds in the church for Decades ?

Abbo jokes Nah not from me....why bring race into it ? ?


Blob ,Grub hmmm ? Grubs are boy rapists, How will GOD deal with these pieces of filth .

Blob, 1434151984

OK, are you saying freeride knows it is true but it still isn't true? Cause that won't float.
In the end he saw god or he didn't.
Truth remains absolute and ultimately objective. Outside of faith or opinion (another debate...)
Freeride knows what he knows and tim has to sit on his opinion that it couldn't happen, because that's all tim has...opinion.
I will unhappily change my opinion when you prove I can't know what I know. I have a subjective experience that I know is real, it could be false, but the evidence I have is of a nature that, for me, trumps contrary opinions. My understanding of our purpose in life, church etc. provide a wider context that is supportive and makes sense to me. And it is GOOD.

Gnosticism .....does God create sin or control sin to bring to pass good? Both positions are obviously arguable but as I see God as a literal Father you can guess how I would see that.

Blob, 1434153780

Among a sample of 4 or 5 atheists?

Man up
How do you think stopping parents teaching their own beliefs to their own children in their own homes would do in a referendum?
And to repeat...how would you stop them?

Blob, 1434154265

You've converted me
How was I so stupid to trust 2000yr old camel herder fairy tales when Ted had the answers all along
Be careful.....you are what you eat

Blob, 1434156129

Amongst all the catholic bashing a statistic was under reported ......child abuse in non catholic institutions occurred at the same rate, per capita, as within catholic institutions.
The Catholic Church had a huge number of children in its care
Cover ups happened elsewhere too.
Pedophiles look for opportunity where they can
Now our more enlightened population allows kids to be exposed to every species of filth on the internet ....why? Partially so hypocrites who like to damn pedophiles can watch porn.
You want God's justice? You'll get it.
Humans have an intrinsic desire for justice, but without a just God you got nothing....the bad guys win
With a just God, you will get your justice. Those who hurt children are particularly stuffed....and you and I will be accountable for every word we speak........even for grubby jokes

brutus, 1434156909

Udo..if you think its just Religious bodies that commit pedophilia....fair enough....but as you most certainly know there are plenty of pedophiles that are not Christians...so your comment is vilification.....and not really factual.....

vilification of race or religion is the same......and as you are aware ....currently there is a royal commission , which is getting to the truth from the churches..

making fun of a boy being split in 1/2.......hmmm

Rabbits68, 1434157569

[quote=brutus]Udo..if you think its just Religious bodies that commit pedophilia....fair enough....but as you most certainly know there are plenty of pedophiles that are not Christians...so your comment is vilification.....and not really factual.....

vilification of race or religion is the same......and as you are aware ....currently there is a royal commission , which is getting to the truth from the churches..

making fun of a boy being split in 1/2.......hmmm[/quote]

Bit rich you taking the moral high ground isn't it Brutus?!? Not that long ago I recall you taking the piss out of a fatal shark attack victim...........mmmmmm

udo, 1434159469

No where did I say that only the religious commit pedophilia
Where did I say a boy had been split in 1/2.

brutus, 1434166193

Udo....joking about an altar boy being split..or were you joking or not ..maybe you do need another one.....you know what you said and why....

as for your comments on religion...and your facts on pedophilia in the church.....I used your comment that you had split your altar boy...and your following comments showed only the churches ..so I used supposition ..which is a bit broad so...OK ...

Rabbits......my comments on the shark attack vitim ...I was not taking the piss....I have empathy for the victim friends and family....but....if you surf.....we are part of the food chain.....so get over it....I grew up with sharks and the knowledge the next surf could be your last........should be part of a surfers DNA......not some emotional knee jerk reaction.......

udo, 1434169827

Cheers Brutus, it was actually a 'Hypothetical' ,its interesting the path Blob and yourself went down ..child rape.
When the comment didn't say that...and really could be mean something different but you both chose that line of thought.

I didn't say I had split my Altar boy.

uplift, 1434173210

This stuff's easy for me dawg, only takes a couple of minutes. I've got a deluxe memory too, that why it was so easy for me to get on those honour rolls.

God sees all dawg. You know that though. Come on now daaaaawwwwggggggggg!!!!

'Mate that was the young grommet version at chi's .... You know, as stated .... first ever trip away from surfing sand bottomed qld points... Solo trip....In fact first ever time in a steamer....Nothing to be ashamed of there, lift..... Honesty......Truth...... Surfing reefs got easier as experience grew ( you should fuckn know that - so this powder puff punch angle of yours has no effect on me)....
I even learnt how to turn a surfboard, mate..... You should try it one day'

Thats fucking hilarious, well done! Have a go at that knee high, one foot, liitle rampaging piece of onshore, pussy, gutless windslop! Tracks, dawg, where ya been? If only we could see the before and after, the tracks of that fucking ludicrous debacle. God knows dog, lists don't fool God!

So, as ya said, a steaming pile left at chis, the tracks, even though ya think ya covered them... God knows dawg!

imagine that scenario, in ya 'shot'... all the tracks. The kiddies, mums, dads, grannies, gramps, every form of water craft ever invented, all going for a swim, a paddle in the ludicrous, onshore, pussy, periodless slop. Dawgy world! And then a call, a spruik, a squwark bleats out across the car park.

'Its a farkin 999.9 hectar faaaarrrkin pascul spin orf eye, joinin' up wiva sub troorpical faaarkin derpreshun that farkin is aye.... an thats jus ther farkin lemon, next to the faaarkin... I luv shreddin faaarkin lemons aye, look out yar cunts, I'm on the farker!!!' Bin trackin it fur faaarkin munfs I ave... aye!!!'

And as the mighty, a paddlin' dawg grunted and squwarked his way through kiddies and families and flotsam wading about the fucking windblown, gutless, ludicrous puss, squwarking 'experienced' words left, right and centre, ala:

'Ere, stop wading in frunt a me when I'm 'eading out va back, fur the faaarkin peak fuck wits... lurn sum faarkin surfee rules ya cunts!!! Oiii!!! Put a farkin leggy orn that rubber ring ya cunt, ya mite farrkin kill some one aye!!! FFFFFAAAAARRRRKKKK!!!! Its a farkin uge faaarkin set aye, I just got back from steamin' up Chi's, I'm garn the fuccker aye!!!

And so the mighty dawg went the piddly bath tub sized lump of ludicrous puss... yes, tracks. And back tracking even further...

'Gidday mozza, they call me the farrkin' dawg, and I need a new speshalized faaarkin stick fur shreddin slabs, and reefes and bombs and shit aye... I do... aye maaaytte!'

'Faaark, sounds like you need me new 70mph, God Smacka 200... are ya a big, faaarkin afletic cunt!!! '

'Faaark, yeh, bin swingin' the faarkin axe aye, and bin around the sportin' an trainin' scene for yonks I ave!!!'

'Shit aye!!! Me too mmmaaayyte, I bin' training ve worlds greatest aflete I ave aye!!! Know just what ya need maaayte. Reverse v the cunt too!'

'Oii, 'ang on there maaayte, I faaarkin am not a faaarkin reverse v, ya cunt, me faarkin shouldas are so wider than me farkin guts... who faaarkin told ya they faaarrkin arnt... faaarkin wordy I bet aye!! Nuffin wrong wiv my shouldas aye ya cunt!!!'

Tracks. Forward tracking, so the dawg was on the set of the day, and as he squiggled and wriggled, and squwarked his way through the pack, in that pussy, ludicrous, wind slop, bath tub sized arena, masquerading as 'surf', his mind went into post steaming chi's overdrive.

'Faarrrk ere' comes as sectshun, a faaarkin doublin' growa too!!! Oii!!!!! You lil' faaarkin kids, stop wiv ya standin' an splashin' in me faaarkin sectshun ya cunts, can't ya's see she's faaarkin slabbin' on me!!! Faaarkkk oooorf!!! You too aye granny!!! 'Ere I faaarkin gooo aye!!! Full farkin power.... 70mph aye ya cunt!!! take vat, I'll teach ya ta slab 'orn me aye!!! YYYYYYYYYIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YYYYYYYYYYYYTYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ride vat fucker dawg!!!'

And as the dawg paddled the half a dozen or so strokes back to the peak, through the kiddies and families and flotsam wading about the fucking windblown, ludicrous puss, he gave one final screechin' squwark...

'Thats owe ya ride a faaarkin' slab aye!!! Chi's mighta dun me up, but best faaarkkinn stick I evo ad aye!!! Fanks mozza, got va best slab orve me feeble life on it aye... I dun... aye!!! Oiii!!! Wot are yous larfin at ya cheeky lil cunts!!!! I'll hip an farkin shoul... well, I'll hip yas anyway ya faaarkin cunts!!!'

God sees all dawg. Even the relentless flow of frizbeed pie tins to the back of ya scone. And the truth in that, drool soaked, tattered, scratched, chewed, bloodied, trampled, stained, smelly, torn, sticky taped, and torn and sticky taped, and torn, and sticky taped and screeched and squwarked at list... dawg. Blax. God knows dawg. You know dawg. Ya can't fool God dawg. I know ya luv lists. Always have known dawg... no need to say it son. There's still time dawg, blax is ready!!!

'Next someone will tell me that humans, with science, can create life, or that its inevitable with 'scientific' 'progress' that they will be able to someday!'

i dare yas!

brutus, 1434176963

So what did ya mean Udo???

just so ya know.....I have personally seen and have friends who were abused.....and will suffer for the rest of their life......I also have experienced heavy racial vilification in Australia.......so maybe I am the exception to the rule with these experiences....so I get a bit testy........especially if comments are jesting or even just trolling......when people don't understand how much damage they can do thru ignorance or just flippant comments......

Blob, 1434178850

No no no, don't make it worse

goofyfoot, 1434180870

You really need a surf, you've fucken lost it big time

Sheepdog, 1434185182

Yeah he lost it last time too goofyfoot..... I Posted a video of a muscleman and a puppy at him.... Upworth started farting and spitting like above...... Everyone laughed.... Even god..... Then upworth went and sulked for 3 months..... It's all there in the threads..... Recorded like a chapter in a holy book......
Chapter 4 - And upworth asked the lord, "ohh lord, I have battled them all and have succeeded.... But the evil poodle that cares for sheep knows my weaknesses.... He hath no pity for a simple plank riding soul.... For 90 days and 90 nights, I wept.... I prayed to you dear lord, to strike that poodle down.... But you have forsaken me my lord.... Why?"
And the lord saideth unto Upworth... "oh my large headed son, son of a hundred eggs, You say you wept for 90 days and 90 nights..... But those tears were not for me, your lord.... Those tears were shed for your ego..... An ego that has grown so large, you can no longer see your surfboard, or the good in this world I have created for all....... The poodle has come to humble you my large headed son....,... He is my messenger to you...... Listen to the poodle, for he brings you a gift.... The gift of everlasting generosity".......
:p

uplift, 1434187831

Yeh, sounds well, sounds... well, well sounds... well... well God knows about that list dawg. He knows everything. All about it... that stinkin', drool soaked, tattered, scratched, chewed, bloodied, trampled, stained, smelly, torn, sticky taped, and torn and sticky taped, and torn, and sticky taped and screeched and squwarked at list. Yeh, funny about that aye! Blax dawg... ol' yella! The list. Hey, take the goofball too, you's too shredda's will have a ball. Do it for soufl'e, and the Rev (if he's not busy trolling, ooops, sorry, I mean a lurvin' figjam... God knows these things... ya can't fool God)! Carefull ya don't take the wrong turn off lads... its been done before.... many times too! And don't charge too hard... wouldn't wanna charge too hard aye! Leave the calculators home too... and watch out ya don't get washed away!

Hey, why did you track, target and pinpoint and so called 'surf' (ee) that dribbling, piddling, little, bathtub style, sceric of windblown, pussy, gutless, feeble, lucky to be knee high, pathetic slop, that makes the mid look like slabs from hell anyway dawgy? God knows... remember now, don't change the story too much... now ... dawgy!

Rabbits68, 1434194979

You all wanted him back, howling about how much you all missed him, nows he back & your all complaining again?!? Be careful what you wish for :-)

Sheepdog, 1434233604

Ahhhhh. Rabs.... I'm not complaining... I wanted Upworth to come back after I wiped the floor with him....
This supposed god of yours may see all, upworth... He knows not all of us have latently gay mates with a camera sitting in a safe channel on a 6 foot day.... Post a photo of a big wave mate... Perhaps you look at your photo's like you look at your dick..... And as for posting a photo of yourself and one of a decent surfer below you like in the abbott thread, well that's just plain embarrassing ..... Jon Jon and uplift.... Nearly fell over laughing hahahahahaha....

And the lord saideth unto Upworth... " Oh my humpty dumpty boy, the strongest pedestals are not built with the twigs of self deception... They are built with the bricks of admiration from those around you.... For a pedestal built from ones own ego is an abomination......"

Now upworth... If you want to continue your futile waffle, perhaps we should take it to one of your many forum threads, and allow people here in the article section to get back on track......

brutus, 1434237049

[quote=udo]Cheers Brutus, it was actually a 'Hypothetical' ,its interesting the path Blob and yourself went down ..child rape.
When the comment didn't say that...and really could be mean something different but you both chose that line of thought.

I didn't say I had split my Altar boy.[/quote]

So Udo...what was your point with the Hypothetical........what were you trying to say?

uplift, 1434252786

Yipes! Cheepers! Biff! Bam! Holy pie tins batman!

Its all about the tracks, religion. But, that's not to say religion is necessarily God.

Up an at the pie tins and mop early today dawg... its a religion! Gave em a sermon and a floggin' I'll bet! Watch the shoulders but!

Of course its your dream to stitch me up. Along with blacks, your list... blacks... but, again... where were ya... dawgy? Ya had decades dawg, decades son! At your young age, I was still out there religiously all day, every day. Religiously. No dawg but, the dawg no where to be seen? Tracks dawg! Ok, ya left some skiddies at chi's, ya took on the mid, battled he mighty Fluerieu, left plenty of tracks there, but... oh well. Just cross it off the list dawg. If a few cliffs and rocks and hairy blokes have ya sweatin', and chi's has ya tremblin', and all alone freaked ya, seriously, you'll get fucking flogged dawg. Flogged. Drilled. Its blacks. Everything is as you described dawgy, but magnified a hundred fold. The real desert. Then of course, there's blacks. Not like the pictures dawg, much as you'd love to believe it on the end of the mop handle, kicking and cursing the pie tins. Over half my surfs were alone. Except for the big fish. And blacks. And God. From everything you've said on here, its just not for you dawg. I would be a ruthless, heartless, cold prick to say otherwise.

As for mopping the floor with me in the fitness world, shit dawg, I don't sort pie tins for a crust. I make my living at it, the fitness industry, can earn an income better than many from it. I've done it for over 40 years. But, if ya must, as I've said before, the bar's always in the rack dawg. Come in dawg, we'll train together. Bring the shoulders! But fuck that, I aint nurse maidin' the fuckin things... not this time dawg, that party's over. I'll guarantee you'll quit, give up, in lots of pain, or need surgery before we finish. The whole show will pop and tear. I would be a ruthless, heartless, cold prick to say otherwise. I won't tear and pop though, I have to do it daily, its my job. Come on in, bring the mop... if you must.

God see's all dawg.

'Next someone will tell me that humans, with science, can create life, or that its inevitable with 'scientific' 'progress' that they will be able to someday!'

I don't blame anyone for not going near that. Tracks. We know that we exsist. But asking, 'what are we', 'what am I', puts even the most supposedly esteemed minds into a quandry. Its easier to point out what we aren't. Not the thoughts, not that, not that... ad infinitum. There is so much disagreement and argument over what we are, it can't be seen, measured... not in the physical sense. So can that fact be used as a basis to say that we don't exist? Of course not, its ludicrous to suggest it. Ridiculous. We leave tracks, evidence of our existance everywhere. That we exist is blatently obvious. Only an idiot, a fool would try and reason that all the tracks are just flukes. That no one, or nothing made them. Archeology. Ditch it then. It's pointless.

Then, there's trying to reach a conclusion about life? Huge conundrum. Again. Plenty of tracks though. No one has been able to create it. Despite the best efforts. We know it exists, and we see all the tracks. What if we concede that humans, that is, that unmeasurable I/we/us, that unmeasurable life, with 'science', will be succesful, and create life? Classic. Could they do it? Supposing yes. Massive effort, massive long term focus, someone will be behind it. Design experiments, leave patterns, tracks. Tons of them. Guarranteed. Only a fool , an idiot would think otherwise. Or maybe its true, that classic, idiotic presumption, that classic 'reasoning'. Maybe the scientists should just forget it, shut the lab doors, and wait for a chair, or a test tube to just turn into life, people, dawgs, gators, surfboards and stuff. Or just chuck a few elements through the door, and let em go!

God leaves lots of tracks, patterns, designs.

There are other senses besides physical. I work with physical senses daily. Some people stop using them. So they atrophy. Feel your tricep? No, no matter how hard I try I can't feel anything. Just my back. Don't worry, thats just a habit, one pathway has atrophied along with the muscle, while another has been strengthened. Habits. Just keep trying to send a signal, don't worry soon you'll start to feel it. Its normal. In a year or so, you'll have awesome control, and your workouts will be easy. Some people work on the other senses. Our education system ignores them, and by the time children are adults, they are long forgotten. At the expense of others, purely physical senses. The consequences show. The sense of community, sense of well being, sense of intuition, sense of belonging. Sense of the big picture, God if you like, forgotten.

brutus, 1434252998

udo wrote:Cheers Brutus, it was actually a 'Hypothetical' ,its interesting the path Blob and yourself went down ..child rape.
When the comment didn't say that...and really could be mean something different but you both chose that line of thought.
I didn't say I had split my Altar boy.

So Udo...what was your point with the Hypothetical........what were you trying to say?

happyasS, 1434280648

brutus [scientific proof...hmm...so one man sees blue another sees green...another sees brown....so who is right the majority ?]

i would suggest that the majority of people see colour the same way with a very small variation tolerance. So to answer your question, they are all right. Can we "prove" that everyone sees colours exactly the same....absolutely not. However, humans have spent 100's of thousands of years evolving, and that includes the cones and rods of the human eye too. Evolution of the human body has stood the test of time to develop the human eye into an organ that can spot a dangerous snake & determine the difference between a poisonous plant and one that is edible. We didn't get this far as an animal species just based on luck. Whilst the are a small proportion of people that have colour abnormalities including those that are colour blind, the rest of us just see colour much the same way.

majority nearly always wins, in science as in evolution.

brutus, 1434322097

happy my point is that science is not a 100% correct because of mans interpretation and mans science is often a theory and Trial and error.....massive mistakes get made in the name of science.....and often results in horrendous consequences ....and then we use the bad science and improve it.....

the majority nearly always wins is not very scientific.......so science like Christianity/the Bible is also open to interpretation......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_science_and_engineering_blunders

udo, 1434621414

Ha Ha classic Sheepy - - what do you think of the lyrics of 'This is Religion' by John Lydon P.I.L.

Shatner'sBassoon, 1434955187

a fellow searcher's idiosyncratic existentialism (can there authentically be any other?)

http://www.openculture.com/2015/02/hunter-s-thompson-life-coach-tips-for-finding-meaning-in-life.html

udo, 1434957051

YouTube : Stephen Fry annilates God. this clip and his others are a must watch.

happyasS, 1434960247

correct...nothing is 100% correct. all scientific rules are just perceptions that man has made about the workings and order of nature and the universe. even keplers laws of planetary motion and the theory of gravity are only "theories" at the end of the day. indeed they are very well accepted and tested theories that allow man to acheive an understanding of how things work and get himself to the moon....but at the end of the day there is nothing to say that other laws that dont obey newtons or einsteins laws cant exist and infact might provide for a much better and enhanced view of the world. for example its perfectly clear with our current understanding that human travel to another galaxy will be impossible. however that is not to say that other lifeforms on other planets have not developed other laws of physics in complete contradiction to ours that allow exactly what we have not yet acheived. and of course there is nothing to say that other universes exist in parallel to ours whereby other dimensions might exist and where the speed of light might not be confined to 300,000km/h. so in this respect i entirely agree with your comments about the correctness of science.

but here is the difference, science constantly looks for new understandings, and those that discover them are normally rewarded with greatness. if fact it is sciences duty to continually look for holes in theories and where necessary even completely abolish old thinking, and it does exactly that. does that mean that it can never make a mistake? no...but so what? however religion as purported by the church will do everything in its power to avoid seeking new understandings. if thats because the last deliverer of gods method died over 2000 years ago then thats a bit unfortunate in my book. if it takes 2000 or whatever years to deliver a revision of the bible then thats simple not good enough. if "god" cannot send more of his men to speak and deliver his word a bit more regularly then religion is always going to be seen as something of the past.

on another note - id like to see some of these "miracles" myself before i start beleiving. you have seen miracles as you say, but i havent seen shit...so i can conclude that religion is either all a load of crap OR that i am an incredibly unlucky person to have not seen and am missing out of something. for the while now i chose the former. so that leads me to my question....why does "god" choose some people to touch with his hand and not others? so i am led to understand by believers that if i start believing then i will "see" these miracles....but that doesnt sound very logical to me. that sounds more like a cult to be honest.

btw...."the majority....not very scientific". in fact; the majority is exactly what science is about. its not bad as you say. science is based off the majority informing a decision and an understanding. your list of wiki of science fuckups is pretty small when you consider what science has acheived.

brutus, 1434967006

Hey happy...I was just pointing out that science is not 100% right.....

when you talk about the church ...and its interpretation of the Bible its just that...an interpretation of facts that are presented .....by whatever the powers to be in the Church and I agree that its not exacting ,and often the interpretation gets twisted, in that the church becomes a middleman for God...this is not what the Bible teaches.....

I think that your claim that religion is something from the past...is true in a sense that people are abandoning the Catholic Church ..but there has been a very big swing to organisations that just preach direct from the Bible...don't need all the trappings that traditional churches seem to want to glorify themselves ......

Its quite ironic that a lot of people need to see miracles and be personally contacted by God.....when all of lifes questions have been answered in the New testament....have you actually read the New testament and the teachings of Jesus?

It's interesting that most people believe in climate change....that we are poisoning the planet and there is doom and gloom that the world we live in , will cease to support the lifestyles we live now.....and that we are facing enormous liveabilty problems in the very near future...is it real ??

If so why don't we do something about it....as we have the science to do it , but not the political will?

So what can you believe in....the inherent goodness of man will save us all??

or is there a higher power that is greater than us all.....I love reading books by former atheists ..who tried to prove that the bible was not real...that Jesus didn't exist.....and came away born again Christians...

For the intellects......C S Lewis was an atheist.....and wrote " Mere Christianity"...and logically argues the existence of God.....good read....

I guess when you have lived on the edge like I have....and pushed boundaries to having a lot of near death experiences ...the eternal question ...what does it all mean....I got a clear message....

Or you can believe we are just accidents...and live and die with no purpose...or meaning.....and no spirit or soul....its a very empty feeling......

brutus, 1434967146

Udo how can you annihalate God if there if there isn't one?

Rabbits68, 1434971165

We as human beings still don't know all there is to know about our physical bodies let alone the workings of our mental state. How can we then assume to know how the hell we got here and what are purpose is. Faith seems to be a natural state for humans to hold onto or revert to in a crisis, but is without proof, without knowledge and therefore simply akin to a guess.

Surely an open mind is of more service than a closed one..........

happyasS, 1434975300

since you asked I have to admit that i haven't read the new testament in great depth. i was brought up in a catholic school so was exposed to it, and have had moments where i thought it was worth investigating further by reading but i came up blank about it all. so i kind of gave up thereafter.

its a fair point you make. i do believe in climate change. is it real? maybe - i really cant be sure. the science is not exact. nevertheless i do support action and i find it frustrating that humans cannot get it in order. but how would the bible and teachings of jesus help here? are there messages in the bible? not asking you to answer that in particular.

as for accidents? well you have me lost for an exact answer. my personal view as i age is that i should keep asking that question about purpose. i will probably always struggle with the notion that my existance is just one of a million or billion possible outcomes. it does sound empty when its put like that but im ok with it. where does that leave me for purpose? i do not believe in fate and so therefore i know that my actions do mean something and will have some lasting impact after i die. so i should do the right thing by others. from the point of view of being a better person then i absolutely agree that the bible teachings are of value. as for my soul, i dont think i have one in the religious sense however as a father then i know that my life essence lives on through my child. i find that if i focus on this, then my actions are inherently required to be good. thats enough purpose for me for the moment. of course theres always room for improvement and so i would never rule religion completely out.

brutus your patience towards quite a few bible/religion attacks in this whole discussion is impressive. good onya.

brutus, 1435015014

Hi Happy , yeah I have copped a lot of ridicule in the last few years which tests ya faith....but being a bit of an analytical freak.....I love reading and discovering like minded people...and also I have met some amazing people and also helped a few friends who have been in bad places....even been into Hawaiian juvenile prison...to talk to really really messed up kids.....been an incredible journey.......as all my life there was feeling of something missing.....

As far as what Jesus could teach us about the current state of the world...I read this morning..It is more blessed to give than receive,"......hmm......one of the problems with the world right now is we are a race of takers.....we have a short term view of life , and seem to judge each others success on what they have...so more is better....??

you mention your life essence.....is that a tangible scientific state of being...or is there something inside you that you can't quite put a finger on...but its good...and your love for your child...is....hmmm.....that a scientific formula....???

I was one of the worst God bashers.....and found myself , after another near miss with death......opened my mind and heart and went to Hawaii and ......I finally surrendered and went OK ....I'm in....where to from here......and here I am chatting to you......now that's nearly a miracle from where I was.....hehe

As for people who find the need to vilify somebody because of their color or religious beliefs ...its actually their problem....and from my perspective sad........

as for the catholic school.......yeah , I had similar experience being made to be an altar boy , choir........... ( ahhhh)...Sunday school teacher...scout....but it just did not resonate with me.....and at the age of 16 bailed never to go back into a church for 41 years...and I became a God hater/disbeliever.....

really enjoy talking to ya happy...and your questions and thoughts are greatly appreciated.....

brutus, 1435015300

hey rabbits.....how is being a born again Christian....close minded.....actually closing your mind to the possibility that there is a God...and there was Jesus.....there is a ton of evidence that Jesus did exist.....the debate is whether he was as he claimed...to be the son of God....

so there is not a lot of assumption....but a lot of facts....but you need to read and study for yourself.......that's an open mind......

Blob, 1435016105

People typically buy on emotion and then justify their choice with logic manufactured after the fact
This is not an open minded approach

A mind is like a parachute - it works best when it is open

“Faith is taking the first step even when you don’t see the whole staircase.”
Martin Luther King, Jr.
This is an open mind

Blob, 1435016511

"Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as by the obstacles which he has overcome while trying to succeed." Booker T. Washington (1856-1915)

Blob, 1435020137

Don't talk nonsense
The Germans were Catholics and Lutherans and they dropped religion for a new saviour and a new ideology - Hitler and Fascism - a brutal, godless philosophy that distorted Nietzsche and dressed up in camp mythic style. .....The outcome? 50 million dead
Move to Tiananmen Square if you like China so much. ......Mao killed 20 million
It is hard to even argue the possibility of western democracy and freedom and science developing without the influence of Christianity.
Australians are dropping God because they have new Gods - real estate, sport, hedonism, consumerism and progressive politics...and comedians
It will all end in tears
Where the third world is free enough it is embracing Christianity, not because the people are gullible but because they appreciate things of value that we've discarded.
As the Bible says....The first shall be last and the last shall be first

Blob, 1435021973

I'm not moving any posts - the discussion has moved
Indulge me...if there is an omniscient, omnipotent deity, do you think you would be able to properly understand his actions from a human perspective? It would be a strange infallible being that thought just like you and me, right.
The Bible gives mixed messages which lead to misunderstandings.
God is love in one place, and God is a harsh enforcer in another
Death is tragic to us but If we live after death why would death be a tragedy from Gods perspective?
Perhaps he would be more concerned with sin, as it leads to spiritual death - eternal separation from God
Why would God allow death or suffering in the first place?
We are here to learn, and this knowledge comes at a price. You learn by your mistakes and without evil there is no choice and no appreciation of good. A static dead end.
There was no death in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve chose knowledge at the price of death.
Whether you take the story literally or as an allegory it is people who do the bad stuff since then.
There's one understanding that the world is a living creature that reacts negatively to the wickedness of people - hence tsunamis.
If God is omnipotent he can heal all wounds (this brings Christ into the picture.) and turn what we see as tragic to achieve his objectives for his children
Yes God can be all three things.

Rabbits68, 1435028104

Brutus I never said being a born again Christian was closed minded. My point was once anyone has made there mind up that they have the ANSWER to life, it's beginning & its purpose, without concrete proof, then they are essentially not allowing or necessarily willing to entertain other ANSWERS. So are you suggesting that those of us that haven't made a definite decision in regards to the ANSWER are in denial of the TRUTH?

There are so many questions that can't categorically be answered yet with concrete proof, therefore it relies on faith, a belief of the yet to be proven, IMO. Of course I don't assume to know the answer to any these questions myself. Still looking & learning.....

Shatner'sBassoon, 1435033395

The greatest weight.—What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence—even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!"

Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: "You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine." If this thought gained possession of you, it would change you as you are or perhaps crush you. The question in each and every thing, "Do you desire this once more and innumerable times more?" would lie upon your actions as the greatest weight. Or how well disposed would you have to become to yourself and to life to crave nothing more fervently than this ultimate eternal confirmation and seal?

Shatner'sBassoon, 1435033694

The meaning of our cheerfulness.— The greatest recent event—that "God is dead,"' that the belief in the Christian god has become unbelievable—is already beginning to cast its first shadows over Europe. For the few at least whose eyes—the suspicion in whose eyes is strong and subtle enough for this spectacle, some sun seems to have set and some ancient and profound trust has been turned into doubt; to them our old world must appear daily more like evening, more mistrustful, stranger, "older." But in the main one may say: The event itself is far too great, too distant, too remote from the multitude's capacity for comprehension even for the tidings of it to be thought of as having arrived as yet. Much less may one suppose that many people know as yet what this event really means—and how much must collapse now that this faith has been undermined because it was built upon this faith, propped up by it, grown into it; for example, the whole of our European morality. This long plenitude and sequence of breakdown, destruction, ruin, and cataclysm that is now impending—who could guess enough of it today to be compelled to play the teacher and advance proclaimer of this monstrous logic of terror, the prophet of a gloom and an eclipse of the sun whose like has probably never yet occurred on earth?

Even we born guessers of riddles who are, as it were, waiting on the mountains, posted between today and tomorrow, stretched in the contradiction between today and tomorrow, we firstlings and premature births of the coming century, to whom the shadows that must soon envelop Europe really should have appeared by now—why is it that even we look forward to the approaching gloom without any real sense of involvement and above all without any worry and fear for ourselves? Are we perhaps still too much under the impression of the initial consequences of this event—and these initial consequences, the consequences for ourselves, are quite the opposite of what one might perhaps expect: They are not at all sad and gloomy but rather like a new and scarcely describable kind of light, happiness, relief, exhilaration, encouragement, dawn.

Indeed, we philosophers and "free spirits" feel, when we hear the news that "the old god is dead," as if a new dawn shone on us; our heart overflows with gratitude, amazement, premonitions, expectation. At long last the horizon appears free to us again, even if it should not be bright; at long last our ships may venture out again, venture out to face any danger; all the daring of the lover of knowledge is permitted again; the sea, our sea, lies open again; perhaps there has never yet been such an "open sea."

Shatner'sBassoon, 1435033930

the above 'aphorisms' taken from this good book:

http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Gay-Science-by-Friedrich-Nietzsche.pdf

brutus, 1435038882

Hi Rabbits...there is no such thing as concrete proof....there is always a bit of faith thrown in.....

truth...hm..subjective for each person?

Rabbits68, 1435039493

Hi Brutus, At last you & I agree on something!! It's a breakthrough moment :-)

I'm not a dis-believer in "God" (whatever that is) & at certains times in my life I have "asked" for help from this God, all the time not knowing what or who I was talking to, still don't . For me personally I am in awe of nature & life. I would love to know what it all means........

Shatner'sBassoon, 1435048580

How we, too, are still pious.—In science convictions have no rights of citizenship, as one says with good reason. Only when they decide to descend to the modesty of hypotheses, of a provisional experimental point of view, of a regulative fiction, they may be granted admission and even a certain value in the realm of knowledge—though always with the restriction that they remain under police supervision, under the police of mistrust.—But does this not mean, if you consider it more precisely, that a conviction may obtain admission to science only when it ceases to be a conviction? Would it not be the first step in the discipline of the scientific spirit that one would not permit oneself any more convictions?

Probably this is so; only we still have to ask: To make it possible for this discipline to begin, must there not be some prior conviction—even one that is so commanding and unconditional that it sacrifices all other convictions to itself? We see that science also rests on a faith; there simply is no science "without presuppositions." The question whether truth is needed must not only have been affirmed in advance, but affirmed to such a degree that the principle, the faith, the conviction finds expression: "Nothing is needed more than truth, and in relation to it everything else has only second-rate value."

This unconditional will to truth—what is it? Is it the will not to allow oneself to be deceived? Or is it the will not to deceive? For the will to truth could be interpreted in the second way, too—if only the special case "I do not want to deceive myself" is subsumed under the generalization "I do not want to deceive." But why not deceive? But why not allow oneself to be deceived?

Note that the reasons for the former principle belong to an altogether different realm from those for the second. One does not want to allow oneself to be deceived because one assumes it is harmful, dangerous, calamitous to be deceived. In this sense, science would be a long-range prudence, a caution, a utility; but one could object in all fairness: How is that? Is wanting not to allow oneself to be deceived really less harmful, less dangerous, less calamitous? What do you know in advance of the character of existence to be able to decide whether the greater advantage is on the side of the unconditional mistrust or of the unconditionally trusting? But if both should be required, much trust as well as much mistrust, from where would science then be permitted to take its unconditional faith or conviction on which it rests, that truth is more important than any other thing, including every other conviction? Precisely this conviction could never have come into being if both truth and untruth constantly proved to be useful which is the case. Thus—the faith in science, which after all exists undeniably, cannot owe its origin to such a calculus of utility; it must have originated in spite of the fact that the disutility and dangerousness of "the will to truth," of "truth at any price" is proved to it constantly. "At any price ': how well we understand these words once we have offered and slaughtered one faith after another on this altar!

Consequently, "will to truth" does not mean "I will not allow myself to be deceived" but—there is no alternative—"I will not deceive, not even myself"; and with that we stand on moral ground. For you only have to ask yourself carefully, "Why do you not want to deceive?" especially if it should seem—and it does seem!—as if life aimed at semblance, meaning error, deception, simulation, delusion, self-delusion, and when the great sweep of life has actually always shown itself to be on the side of the most unscrupulous polytropoi[refers to Homer's characterization of Odysseus: much travelled, versatile, wily, and manifold]. Charitably interpreted, such a resolve might perhaps be a quixotism,[referring to Don Quixote] a minor slightly mad enthusiasm; but it might also be something more serious, namely, a principle that is hostile to life and destructive.—"Will to truth"—that might be a concealed will to death.

Thus the question "Why science?" leads back to the moral problem: Why have morality at all when life, nature, and history are "not moral"? No doubt, those who are truthful in that audacious and ultimate sense that is presupposed by the faith in science thus affirm another world than the world of life, nature, and history; and insofar as they affirm this "other world"—look, must they not by the same token negate its counterpart, this world, our world?—But you will have gathered what I am driving at, namely, that it is still a metaphysical faith upon which our faith in science rests—that even we seekers after knowledge today, we godless anti-metaphysicians still take our fire, too, from the flame lit by a faith that is thousands of years old, that Christian faith which was also the faith of Plato, that God is the truth, that truth is divine.—But what if this should become more and more incredible, if nothing should prove to be divine any more unless it were error, blindness, the lie—if God himself should prove to be our most enduring lie?

brutus, 1435052227

Interesting when you come to Philosophers like Nietzsche.....very debatable stuff and interesting to see the human mind reach out and question....

but you wonder what the consequences of his thoughts and philosophy..was he happy , did he live a full life and a life where his teachings accepted , because of his personal example of how he led his life??

heres another side of his story.....would we want to emulate his life??

Well, I sure you all know that and IAMTROGENIC OVERDOSE is an occupational hazard for PHILOSOPHERS. It’s a well known fact that Decartes made the statement “Cogito Ergo Sum”. However, he does not appear to be extant at the present time since I have not seen any recent citations or published works online or at the bookstores. I think and therefore I am… I THINK? Of course, I might not be and then I would have to reevaluate my position. Perhaps CARTESIAN COORDINATES would help and I could then do some reality testing with my map and trusty GPS device. When I was a sailor I used to do that with a sextant, a watch, and a compass. Of course RADAR was helpful at times as well. This by itself is not sufficient without knowledge of speed, wind, current, and computing the drift to offset and refine one’s geographical self knowledge.
Vieleicht Herr Doktor Neitsche just failed to adjust for the current and drift during his internalizations of self knowledge. When really self absorbed narcissists get into their own GESTALT a bit too much then just APPEAR DEMENTED.

brutus, 1435053979

hey rab...don't think we are that far apart......a lot goes down on these forums that's a bit tongue in cheek..and a bit of stirring but...I really hope and pray that your faith will be reinforced by lifes lessons and if not ...educate yaself......which I think these forums do sometimes ...when we stop the personal stuff.....and...communicate in a rational logical manner....and yeah I have been guilty of tantrums and abuse...shit I might be the proof ya can change and improve /evolve.......hehe

Rabbits68, 1435059171

I agree Brutus. Well said mate. I also have been caught up in the irrational & unkind stuff from time to time. Never a good thing and none of us are learning anything positive at that point. We can all do better and that's the challenge each & every day. I very much like my dog's approach to life, greet each day with a broad smile & with gratitude..........How are we going to greet it?? Cheers.....

Blob, 1435101371

The born again surfers are often the happiest
The grumpy surfers often the most cynical
By their fruits ye will know them.....the proof is in the pudding

Philosophy complicates simple things to the point that truth becomes an embarressment

happyasS, 1435138632

....id like to see where humanity would be without philosophy. it is a closed mind that cannot ask questions.

brutus, 1435143432

Hi Happy ..Nazi Germany was an interesting time for Christianity....Hitler was a so called Christian...but with the 3rd reich....you first had to pledge your allegiance to being a Nazi....then the church.....so it was Christian only in name......then Russia......millions killed by their own regime......

China might be prosperous but they also killed millions of their own people...and both communist regimes have been shown did not work...Nth Korea??

Australia...hmm...not Mad Max ......but we seem to be drifting towards the false idols of money power greed.......one only has to look at the rich getting richer...and the poor are getting poorer......

brutus, 1435143555

Blob don't be so judgemental...by claiming nonsense...as there is a grain of truth with what happy has written........discuss and communicate .....leave the emotional baggage at home...

brutus, 1435143820

Hi Happy and Blob...C S Lewis....Mere Christianity...Christian Philosophy...I think one of the most amazing minds of last century ..

brutus, 1435144079

Hey Shatner...hey its great to go back and forth...I learn heaps here and your links are a great read.....

Lee Strobel...the case for Christ.....from a lawyers perspective........argues the facts.....

mundies, 1435153838

I got nothing against God, I just don't like most of his fan club.

Shatner'sBassoon, 1435195093

Brutus, I posted a Richard Flanagan quote a coupla times previously in this thread, concerning Nietzsche and Jesus, and their ideas...and their failure. Worth another look, maybe. I dunno.

I was intrigued by your mention of CS Lewis. I've only known him really for his Narnia Chronicles some of which I read as a kid. This lead me to research him and the work you mentioned. It's what threads can be when they're at their best, I'd like to think. Spread the knowledge.

I wasn't aware of his 'Christian apologist' (his term) philosophical writing. It seems that he may be more famous for these writings now, especially in America, and especially among evangelical Christians (just going by volume in a rudimentary internet search).

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/10/the-odd-story-of-c-s-lewis-an-extremely-odd-man.html

The guy who wrote this (and a biography on Lewis), AN Wilson, has also had his battles with faith, belief & non-belief...worth looking up in themselves. It's all interesting and "human, all too human" (a Nietzsche work by the by).

After some further research, it seems Lewis pretty much forgo this philosophical work to concentrate on his fiction after this debate (with a fellow philosopher and Christian)?

http://ralphriver.blogspot.com.au/2007/01/she-obliterated-me-as-apologist-lewis.html

I will endeavour to add 'Mere Christianity' to my reading list, though I gotta say when it comes to English Lit Christian converts, I've always been a Graham Greene fan.

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/03/books/selection-the-uneasy-catholicism-of-graham-greene.html

Complicated, absolutely, embarrassing, perhaps, and human, all too human, indeed.

Blob, 1435233540

Oh , there is so much wonderful philosophy.....and so much injurious claptrap.....it is a human production after all........ but in spite of all the hard work done by philosophers over millennia ....
"...ironically, every definition of truth that philosophers have developed falls prey to the question "...is it true?"..."
Contrary to some opinions, getting a fundamental answer to the big question is not closed minded, it is just the opposite.

Blob, 1435235369

I'm sure God would empathise with your view....but the problem is He expects us to be more concerned with our own conduct than with critiquing others.

brutus, 1435272205

So Blob.....no need to critique anyone on these forums.....just comment and communicate in a polite manner..

Blob, 1435276821

Sometimes it is hard to separate people from their opinions. If someone spouts ignorant abuse and lies it does them no favour to accept it sweetly. What you tolerate you educate...
I'm trying to learn to find that balance between being being too assertive and too submissive
We are living in a time when Christianity is being co opted, sidelined, and attacked by determined enemies.
Trust me, it will get much worse.

Off the topic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9lPLzvkCjE

markus55, 1435305484

Hi Blob

"...attacked by determined enemies" jesus , thats a bit much dude. christianity is not being attacked....just religion in general. and its your responsibility to defend what you believe in. and yes, i would expect to get worse as more and more people become less religious they will question why you believe as you do. everyone wants to know the truth...and many people want others to believe as they do....its natural...its no different to how religious people spruke their ideas at my front door. whats that all about? if religion didnt get examined critically then we might all fall foul of becoming christians....what a terribly boring world that would be.

Rabbits68, 1435311922

Markus that was beautiful. Sorry to all that were offended but nothing evil about being light hearted........I hope....

markus55, 1435320832

Rabbits....yeah was a bit tounge in cheek with that last bit, certainly not to offend. I have christian friends and its all good. im agnostic but i probably have more in commonality with good natured christians than most atheists. we are not enemies just because we have a difference of opinion about one simple thing such as the existance of god. i dont measure myself solely on account of my belief/disbelief about god and neither should christians. and even if we were to measure ourselves on the basis of the 10 commandments, we would fine that we have already much in common. ive never committed adultery (that i know of), and im too shit scared to steal. and i can surely say that i will never covet my neighbours ass. ;)

Blob, 1435383897

Are Christians in America under attack?

It’s been said that the U.S. is becoming a “secular country,” that there’s a clash between “man’s laws and God’s laws,” and even that our current president has launched a “war on religion.”

Compared to the violence against Christians in many places around the world, the answer is no. Christians in America experience nothing compared to the persecution of Christians in such places as Nigeria, Iran, Pakistan, Egypt or Syria.

What is happening in America is an increasing hostility and intolerance toward Christian beliefs and values that many perceive to be an attack on religious freedom. In current American culture, you are free to be a Christian as long as you don’t actually live out your faith, vote your faith, take a stand in relation to your faith, or believe others should embrace your faith.
In other words, it can be privately engaging, but must remain socially irrelevant.
But there’s more.
There is a real concern that the growing insistence that faith be privatized has now become a demand for faith to be compromised. It’s not enough that your beliefs can’t influence society; you must also embrace society’s beliefs. As Jonah Goldberg noted in USA Today, the opposition to many Christian values has become an “if you’re not with us, you’re against us” mentality.
The recent decision to require most religious institutions – including Catholic hospitals and schools – to pay for contraception, sterilizations and the “morning after” pill is simply the most current case in point. For many this was about government coercion of religious individuals and institutions.
The developing fear is that government will make people choose between obeying the law and following their faith. Of course, the real flash point is the one between religious liberty and LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) rights. For example:

*Catholic Charities in Illinois shut down its adoption services rather than place children with same-sex couples (as the state required).

*A Christian counselor was penalized for refusing to advise gay couples.

*A court clerk in New York was told to issue same-sex marriage licenses, despite religious reservations.

*A wedding photographer was sued for refusing to shoot a same-sex wedding.

In each case, the Christian(s) involved were not attempting to impose their religious views on others. They simply didn’t want to be forced to participate or offer tacit support for something they felt was in violation of their religious conscience.

The argument is, of course, that such stands are discriminatory. But this is disingenuous. For example, refusing to serve a person of color has little in common with refusing to support a particular lifestyle that your religious beliefs deem immoral.

Even further, the argument which states “If you don’t want to serve the public, don’t open a business saying you will serve the public” is equally flawed.

And frightening.

What aspect of religious life isn’t, in one sense or another, “public”? A worship service is a service to the public, is it not? Does that mean it, too, should be subject to government oversight in terms of who it is forced to accommodate and how it is demanded to operate? Will it come to the point that to maintain integrity, all public events of a religious nature will have to become non-public, and thus effectively end any and all outreach? That might be the very desire of some, but it would drive the heart of the church’s mission underground every bit as much as it is in countries where persecution is taking place.

In a historic visit to the Vatican this past Wednesday, British Cabinet minister Baroness Warsi expressed her “fear” about the marginalization of religion, and specifically Christianity, through Britain and Europe. “My fear today is that a militant secularization is taking hold of our societies ... one of the most worrying aspects about this militant secularization is that at its core and in its instincts it is deeply intolerant. It demonstrates similar traits to totalitarian regimes – denying people the right to a religious identity. … You cannot extract Christian foundations from the evolution of our nations any more than you can erase the spires from our landscape.”

Indeed.

And before anyone says, “There’s another alarmist Christian right-winger for you,” think again.

Sayeeda Warsi is a Muslim.

James Emery White

Sources
“Liberals are the true aggressors in culture wars,” Jonah Goldberg, USA Today, February 6, 2012. Read online.
“Has Obama Waged a War on Religion?,” Barbara Bradley Hagerty, National Public Radio, January 8, 2012. Read online.
Britain being overtaken by 'militant secularists', says Baroness Warsi, The Telegraph, February 13, 2012. Read online.
See also “Religious freedom under threat from courts, professor warns” by David Shariatmadari, The Guardian, January 24, 2012. Read online.
On the global persecution of Christians, see “The War on Christians” by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Newsweek, February 13, 2012. Read online.

Blob, 1435388554

Thousands of near death experiencers say they didn't want to come back cause it was so nice on the other side. I'm open minded to that

Blob, 1435394878

Evolution is supposed to endow organisms with more advanced capabilities via natural selection over long...LONG....periods of time. The problem with that is that humans have gotten from ape men to astronauts far too quickly....in an evolutionary instant. You don't need the excess intellectual capacity of a Beethoven or a concert pianist to bag a mammoth . Unfortunately the mutational maths don't add up so the guessers keep guessing. Still..."it was the drugs what made me smart" is the perfect evolutionary theory for scientific surfies

Blob, 1435410026

Take a pill
I'm juggling 4 arguments at once
How bout a little Christian charity
But I still luv ya babe

Blob, 1435410963

Are these your arguments?
Or have you paraphrased another's?
They seem to contain elements of a foreign writing style

1: Supernatural replaced with natural explanations.......
You demand an example but have provided no example. Great start. Flawed explanations can come from flawed understanding. It happens in science all the time you know...hey, why don't you throw out science.? Great point though.

2: Inconsistency in perceptions of God.......
already covered at length in comments. Why not, if you want to be relevant address the responses already there? I know you wanna make a list.... But gee.
As in....
(Blob commented Wednesday, 27 May 2015 at 11:26am
Why worry about what other people believe? Keep it simple. You have a conscience - use it to judge various claims. Personally I don't like chopping off people's heads, and I'm confident God doesn't like it either. Try this model: God sets up a situation where good and evil exist and drops his children in there to work it out so they can learn. What they choose is what they will get. As a man sows so shall he reap. There are lots of churches because men start with pure revelation and then work it into their own image. God reveals truth. Men make many churches. There can be lots of churches and philosophies that combine truth and error. A diffusion. They can be part right and part wrong, and there can still be a "straight and narrow path" among the confusion. In the end, most persistent Christians have gone directly to the source for a definite answer. You can read one of the gospels in an afternoon and then get on your knees. Of course most people are way too clever to do that.)

God doesn't make us all believe the same thing. Free moral choice and the existence of evil make things necessarily untidy

3: Weak arguments for the existence of God......
again, you are addressing straw men that are not mentioned in the comments, other arguments you restate in a dishonest way and others are ignored. You do this while objecting to weak arguments. Plenty of big brains like the arguments you choke on. Wondering.....do you find your own weak arguments objectionable?

4: Diminution.....
Is this a word you use often? I only ask because your usual vocabulary seems more modest. Anyway, this seems a rather blunt point as the Christian God towers powerfully over history even though the bible places heavenly power in God and sees persecution for a small unpopular true church. The Bible places worldly power in Satan, false religion and men. Did the historical weakness of atheism disprove atheism? Christianity does not even claim popularity as proof. This is an uninformed objection.

5: Runs in families.....
I'm having trouble with this one.....trouble even understanding how it is convincing to anyone but the most partisan drone. Atheism runs in families too. Even more strongly than religion ....am I right? Tell me. I wonder why you would leave this information out? Politics and every form of ideology and culture is passed on in families, and we are influenced by the umbrella culture, sometimes in opposition to our upbringing......um....obviously

6: No soul, just a brain...
This is a no brainier. The soul can be explained in religion as located in the brain, the body and outside the body and all at the same time. You say that brain science is in its infancy and in the next sentence give 7 adjectives to say the science is rock solid settled. A list of adjectives that long is trying to cover a weakness way too hard. Fess up, consciousness is nowhere near settled science. We would have to be unconscious to fall for this nonsense.

7: Failed testing of supernatural phenomenon.....
Adjective time again. Would something be supernatural if it were testable by natural means? If there is a God that pulls strings would He allow supernatural things to be objectively provable if it would defeat His stated purpose of requiring faith? Another "Cart before horse " uninformed objection. You are left again trying to disprove religion without at all understanding religion. Christians don't try to prove the resurrection in labs but they encourage the individual to experiment on a personal level with faith, prayer and study. If that is just too silly for you then let it go buddy

8: The slipperiness of belief....
Even atheists can be superstitious and put their shoes on in a certain order, this is a human fallibility. Some Christians do not see God in every outcome. Other Christians are somewhat gullible. It may be outside your experience but many rational, highly intelligent Christians seriously believe that prayers are answered....because they have had prayers answered. I know...silly people

Why accuse me of shifting goal posts when you are misquoting me? I said the Bible is perfect at the time it is revealed, then it is messed with by men to some degree, then it is variously interpreted - but it should only be understood by through the same spirit of revelation by which it was given. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said the bible needs to be interpreted, I said the exact opposite.

9 failure of Religion to improve......
Have you run out of even the lousy arguments? Don't dismiss religion because of science. Science grew out of religion. You have a real annoying problem with the confusion of religions....why exactly do you believe God should have everyone walking in a straight line.? He does not think like you. You are again complaining from a position of ignorance.

10: Lack of evidence......
Again. You had your chance to address this issue in previous comments without "your" list. There are billions of intelligent people that have weighed the evidence you will not even consider, and they believe in God.

Believe it or not I don't see this as a competition. I know what I know. I'm not spending any ink in this rebuttal explaining what I actually believe cause you don't actually want to know. ....yes I'm a bit slow on the uptake.
I'm as competitive and argumentative as the next jerk. I can flare up when I feel insulted, but I'm only here to call out people who like to insult other peoples sincere beliefs, and defend my own. If I succumb to sarcasm I apologise. It's fun, and better than killing people. No hard feelings on my part.
I understand exactly where you are coming from. You are such a believer in what you think of as disciplined rational deduction, you won't open your mind to another way of thinking.
But your objections betray a need for a God that agrees with your expectations, a God that shows his power by having everyone in lock step, that proves himself to us with miracles on demand. In effect you are demanding a God that thinks like a 21st century atheist.
Sorry, bout that...wrong God
Just remember, there are no atheists in the foxholes. When the tough time comes, and there is no more jokes and laughs, and your materialistic beliefs bar you from any desperate wish for meaning or hope, you may then realise you need more than arguments, and you might remember you have another choice.
Without ever doing the experiment of faith - even on your own rational terms, you will only ever be left with the partially informed, best guesses of men.
Hey, don't shoot me for trying....

Blob, 1435611324

That's all good....but show me the book or philosophy that is superior to the bible. Please.
You are welcome to your opinion, but wouldn't comparing the writings that have inspired some of the greatest minds in history and upon which so much of our culture is based to frog sh#t reveal your opinion to be the thing that is deficient?

Blob, 1435611534

Is that why your nose is so far up your condescension?

Blob, 1435615317

The fact that so many athefacists focus pathologically on the supposed evils of religion while blindly refusing to admit any good in what is probably the most powerful influence for good in history, and at the same time refusing to acknowledge the brutal oppression of contemporary atheist regimes, says everything about their reliability. They are hostile witnesses. They are so emotionally committed to the lies that they are unable to be rational or scientific....blind faith.
Comparing the godless regimes of the 20th century to modern Christianity is like comparing the Manson gang with the society of St Vincent De Paul.
These guys love a lie.

udo, 1437270072

.